Curran

Ichijosai Hirotoshi with his particular 'bag' kao. --Some old texts read his signature Hironaga. Hirotoshi was considered to be the founder of the Uchikoshi (sp?) subschool of the large Mito school. Had 7 or 8 students? I have no books at present so am just going from memory of his signature: Grev's both look gimei to me. The Peabody 'Hirotoshi' is also suspect. For whatever fashionable reason, this smith was the target for many _added_ signatures. edit: found a file of his authentic signature See image

(1) “consider it late Edo Kamiyoshi” I did not. Best guess was shinsa would go that way, but I left it open ended, as it is an odd tsuba. (2) Poor images – yes. Best I think David can do without flipping it up on a camera microscope at work. Given where he works, I wouldn't ask him to do that. (3) “you have no practical experience” – 'bench worker' parent w/ the home shop, PA steel mill summers & Industrial Arts highschool is Too Blue Collar, yes? Years of industrial working marble, granite, etc is also not going to carry much weight. It is all one or two off and call me a hack, but the best I’ve got to work with in observation. I hobble it together with a lifetime of having a parent who was a painter, and few decades of that myself, so yes I do approach it mostly with a painter's set of perspective and that blue collar background in crudely working tons of harder material. Best I can do at present. As to the Y shape and a small textured panel punch; you hold the tsuba to get a better sense of it, look under magnification, and then tell me. Until you actually look....I'll hold up my hick overalls while you're at it. I hesitated to say "Those punch marks are as controlled as skilled nanako", but had to go off visual memory from 6 months ago and do remember being very surprised. Looks a lot cruder in the macro. Best nanako? No. Surprising- yes. Different from what I've seen. Not sure what to conclude. If you don't wanna look, fine- then beggar off with saying you've wasted too much time on this. You and I both have. The only thing I take offense with is the distinguishing between your work and that of XXXXX. That is a bit low. I can 110% honestly say it was intention to be open ended to a clearly modern work with some of the quirks you’ve had and/or developed. I felt like throwing XXXXX's name up on stage. Didn't know you'd take that as debasement. Whether it is certain tool you use or some set of ratios and perspective you consciously or unconsciously put on. It shows up in your early tsuba from the 1990s, so I lean towards 'unconscious'. It screamed ‘Ford’. Without looking up the thread, I believe I ‘reserved opinion’ initially sense it was such a no brainer. Did it hurt to give XXXXX a little spotlight? He doesn’t self promote. One of XXXXX's tsuba looks like you worked on it or influenced it greatly. Did you not? Bridging from the idea that a tsuba maybe had more that 1 person have worked on from beginning to end, is that not a possibility with David's tsuba? With David's tsuba hurting your eyes, you disparage XXXXX's work and David's tsuba in the same post. Why in the world would you drag XXXXX into this? To put down my knowledge base? I'm already a Fool defending the more difficult side of what I see as a weak middle ground between an odd but interesting tsuba and a shinsa panel that probably quickly dismissed it. You have such skill and then inter-personally throw it into the mud at times like this.

Ford- keep magnifying. 10x. Until you see the chidori type 'Y' punch marks. It surprised me too. Wondered if if had been achieved in some other way, and kept looking for overlap of a panel type punch, but it showed much more like a brocade with only slight little expansions / contractions in density of pattern. Panel punch in itself would form a secondary pattern. So keep magnifying and then consider explaining, onegaishimasu. Alternatively, just dismiss it. As Thierry noted, you've long been one to cast on the NBTHK. The "A highly qualified panel by any reckoning, I think", sounded standard Hallam tongue in cheek. Having worked 3 of the Yoshikawa NTHK shinsa and handled most of the shinsa result paperwork for them, there have previously been several fittings judges. In the past there has usually been another one or two at the shinsa not with a Bio up. I was curious who the other judges had been this time around. I doubt the NTHK has cut down to just the two. I'm sorry that David has become a flashpoint here, but I agree with him. Per the Droll Troll wisdom, it would be easy to step aside and let David go this one alone. I won't, even knowing this tsuba is a difficult one to defend with such an unusual design and such and odd mix of uncertainty in the workmanship and then OCD in other aspects of it. You imply the NTHK gave it the full weight of its experience and observation. Though I haven't corresponded with David about it, I do concur that the USA based shinsa face a long list of constraints from jetlag to limits on references. The often cited added value of the NTHK is the extra information they are willing to provide. In this instance, I think David did not get it. As former handler of the shinsa paperwork, I would guess he got a mostly blank worksheet. Classically, the rejects for swords have been pink. The ones for kodogu have varied depending what color paper they had on hand for non-pass. (Edit: I see that David posted just now his too received the infamous 'pinkie' /old joke of the finger connotation meant too.) Personal experience and how we react to it being the learning or not learning process. You seem to feel we're off in La-La Land not learning a damn thing. I don't think we are really to one side or another, as the tsuba is an odd one. Might be a mix of student & teacher work. Do you totally abstain from touching the work of your students? I prefer the other one David bought in Tampa, but both were interesting for very different reasons. David has timelined his experience in public and the NMB members in observance can form their opinions. Be we prattling fools, I'll take it over silence.

Jah, jah- The Occam's Razor is that this is towards me. Though I wondered if you were taking your humor to a new level with the Pius Pacelli latin. It would be most elegant if I thought there was some self deprecation in it. I am clearly a Fool, and quite aware it would have been in my best interests to be silent. Especially if afraid of being found out to be a fool. We're not debating a national treasure tea cup here, or a Yonemitsu for that matter. Share your opinion, please.

Thank you, as I should have seen that. I had dinner with Iwamoto-san years ago, and enjoyed meeting with him. I'd enjoy talking with him again someday. The last 3 times I dealt with the Yoshikawa NTHK, there were 4 individuals supporting the fittings kantei. Ie. Three Japanese and American english fluent gent. Who were the other two Japanese the fittings panel this time around?

As stated earlier, saw this tsuba on a website and wondered about its age. Saw it in Tampa and though it was more interesting. Then got to sit with it under magnification and think about it for a while. I appreciate most of Ford's comments, though don't agree on some of the key points. Perhaps I would have agreed had I not sat with the tsuba. I'm not confident whether it is Edo or Meiji, but I'm rather sure it isn't Showa or more recent. It is well preserved and incredibly polished (though not to the point of some of Sasano's tsuba), yet shows points of age and wear. Just not easily visible in the photos. It has the feel and finish of pieces I've see on some better preserved Toppei koshirae. Those punch marks are as controlled as skilled nanako, though I couldn't tell that until looking under magnification. If I remember correctly, their actually little 'y's like chidori feet? David will need correct me, but I remember it being a different that I had first though when looking. I just assumed it was generally patterned, but 10x magnification showed very tight punchwork. Don't know how many judges it takes to pink an item at the NTHK. Anyone have a run-down on who were the judges this time? Last time I think Mr. Helm posted Bios on his page.

USA Shows = best place to buy these days. Was determined to attend this year. In the end, could not. I hear there was an excellent Higo presentation and am regretful many times over that I couldn't be there for it. Still remember the Yagyu exhibit from years ago as the best I've ever seen.

Thank you for the mental food. I have little knowledge of manga, but appreciate the display and imagination of those who breathed life into it.

Dealer / seller says it is gimei? I have no problem owning a gimei now and then. I've bought a few at fair price, for the quality of the work when a signature was added. There have been one or two times where I thought the added signature actually correctly identified (or closely) the work it claims to be. But commercially: gimei takes a big chunk of value off it. Yahoo!Japan seems to be a favorite place for Japanese dealers to unload gimei. 4 out of every 5 signed unpapered pieces on Yahoo!Japan seem to be gimei. Often bid names, and the sellers behind them turn out to be some of the Japanese dealers we all know. I can say that within the last week, I tried to buy a tsuba the seller thought was gimei. Doesn't match up better than 90% with the book signatures, but I know the artists work very well and he had quite a long life with variations of his signature documented. Also, the design on the tsuba- I've studied an almost identical one with Tokubetsu Hozon papers. I felt it had a good chance of being real. I offered to buy it. Seller was slow in getting back to me, and said it was 'no longer for sale'. Did it sell? No.... now being 'further researched'. Make up your own mind. One of my favorite tsuba everyone thought gimei. Thus no one papered it. Turns out it was the son partially forging the father's signature. (Signature was half done by dad's hand and the other half a laydown composite of the son's handiwork). Tokubetsu Hozon now. But of course many gimei are just gimei. Based on the quality of the work, figure out your own risk to reward. If you like it, buy it at a fair price.

the well known one upon the grave of Edward the Black Prince: "Such as thou art, sometime was I. Such as I am, such shalt thou be. I thought little on th'our of Death So long as I enjoyed breath. But now a wretched captive am I, Deep in the ground, lo here I lie. My beauty great, is all quite gone, My flesh is wasted to the bone."

Yoshinoyama and the Yoshino Torii? I believe there was a woodblock print like this from the late 1800s? Seems familiar.

For those of us that cannot attend, will there be a publication? If so, please confirm here or via PM. I'd definitely like a copy and can have a friend pick one up.

Vote that such posts should stay here, especially on higher aesthetic items. These tsuba are popular work of the school, and I've always loved them. Seen them in shakudo, brass, silver, and copper. I've seen one or two signed Shakudo ones. Never seen them signed in other metals. However, this is the first time (& possibly last) I've seen a daisho. Signed daisho makes it even more rare. I had the chance to buy one of these in brass at a fairly decent price last year. Went to get the money, and came back- someone else came along and offered $50 more for it and took it. That will teach me to say "I'll buy it, let me get the cash", rather than "Okay, I'll be back". My own fault and not that of the seller .

Eric, Tobias, Daniel, and others at large. Sent him an email, and we'll see if I get a response.

Didn't see the revival of this thread until now. I had traded a few emails with him. I will contact him with the other email I have on file and see if I get a response. I like his kake very much. If I had more swords, I'd buy more. Thought about asking him to make one for a tanto, or for tsubas - but already have special stands for those.

Japan: prolonged boom 70s, 80s. Long bust into 90s, 00s. Value of art from a particular country often follows its economic progress, with some exceptions. The Chinese art sold to us by a mainland friend in the 1990s has gone up 10x. I wouldn't buy it now. Frame of reference on the data matters significantly. Japanese Nihonto and related: Been following for about 25 years, but only actively collecting 15 years. Been focusing on kodogu the last 9-10 years. Post 9/11 seems a lot of former sword collectors have migrated into fittings. Also new collectors in fittings. Also, watched the price of many WWII swords rise significantly. As to fittings- they've definitely faired better than most swords: (1) Many of the desirable higher end fittings have risen in price. Better than the US stock market the last 10 years. Since the Fittings Museum closed and was auctioned off 9-10 years ago- not seeing such stuff come to open market. (2) Mid end: cycles up and down with fads, publications in English, and supply/demand. 6 to 8 years ago everyone was collecting Kanayama tsuba. Now, not so much. (3) Low end: iron tsuba have definitely softened in price, whereas kinko have firmed or risen with the price of gold, silver, etc.. Cost you at least 2x to have something made as it would to buy an original. However, I would say the # of desirable tsuba you see on eBay nowadays is gone to almost 0. Best place in the world to buy now is at a US sword show (ie. San Fran) if you know what you want and will bargain. While seeing more and more of the older desirable stuff like Goto work come to market at fair prices as older collections break up, other areas which were less understood or known outside of Japan (and books have since been translated into English) have gone up in demand for what is slightly dwindling supply. Ito-san's work, Markus' work, and several other private sources have given some of us libraries and knowledgeable more powerful than we had 10 years ago. I'll also use this as a chance to promote Markus' blog: http://markussesko.wordpress.com/

Abstain until some others reply.

Interesting thread. Thank you to all that have participated, with special thanks to Kunitaro-san. I own 4 blades in total: 3 with sashikomi polish (two are old polish > 100 years & 3rd is by Yoshikawa Kentaro c. 1978-84) 1 with kesho polish c. 2000 3 are from the Oei period. This makes for interesting cross comparison study relative to the comments here.

Meticulous. Thank you for sharing this. As someone else stated, it is a dying artform. To see tsukamaki at this level is an empyrean pleasure.

+1 Peter +2 Kevin Thanks to a lurker on the board, in Tampa saw several top quality pieces from this school. Many thanks to him, as it was a pleasure. Had there been proper time, I would have liked to seen the many others he had with him at his table. This Aoi Arts one has no appeal for me. Years ago I think Mike Y and Cyrus has a Juyo one for sale.

Ah but this thread took me back to the original thread, and then back to the New South Wales display thread. Love those swords and the display. Especially what Colin did for the kodogu. Any newbies punching up the original thread should also find that New South Wales display thread and give it a read. Here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4666 If I lived there, I think I would visit many mornings before going to work.

As Pete said: back issues of the Dai Token Ichi catalogs. There are significantly less Juyo kodogu than swords. Why?: the reasons are many.... I think those are dewdrops(?) on the morning grass. Some say the design is the grass of Sekigahara after the battle. (The ko-akasaka was one of my first "a-ha, I appreciate this aesthetic" finds. It was in very bad shape when I bought. Caring for it, the tsuba has healed remarkably over the last decade.) As they all say.... books are a good thing. If you like Akasaka, try to get the Sano Akasaka book w/ its English translation. It is a good read and very helpful.

I agree with Mariusk: well done. Not often a newbie comes in with two solid examples. As to collecting, I think the number of fittings collectors in the west is growing. In the last decade, many fittings books have been published or translated into English. This has really helped. Prices: up, down ,sideways. Supply vs demand is very true and there is ebb & flow in terms of what people collect. Some of the traditionally collected schools have come down in price as old collectors sell into new collectors who are better educated and able to collect across any school they wish. Many top quality pieces hit the market with the closing of the private Sano Fittings Museum around 2004. ~~ However, since 2009 there seems to be an increasing shortage of the upper top level pieces. With a few exceptions, they seem to go relatively fast privately. Attached is a ko-akasaka similar design to your tsuba. I think this is one of the earliest designs in the school, as I feel this ko-akasaka predates the nidai Tadamasa (Rice grains) and the sandai Tadatora (Bamboo sprouting). I tend to think of Tadatora's as being the meatiest ones, but there are many exceptions.

Honestly, after a long time at it I still have a hard time valuing these. The timing of the thread was ironic, as I expected to list a ko-tosho / tosho , a late Jingo, and one or two sets of menuki on eBay soon. Knowing what would be fair value for the ko-tosho is hardest.