Curran

Yep. Definitely some Scottish blood in you. Somewhere in that genetic stew are a few genes given to expressing themselves in the brain as producing and enjoying certain types of humor. Sadly, I have those exact same genes.

Ps. Is John right? Themewise I just saw some springtime Love is in the Air and "Hello my name is Randy Buck..."

Hmmm. After seeing the backs on these menuki, I thought they were ko-Goto. I say No to 'ko-mino'. Learning Goto is a deep rabbit-hole to go down, and I have much further to go now that I've stuck my neck in the last year or so. Peter has a solid many years more Goto learning than I do. I might challenge his kantei in some other schools, but not in this area. I understand his Kaga Goto call, but am not convinced. I might feel differently after getting out the large o'book of Kaga Kinko Taikan. I had a futakoromono of Maeda mon in a fitted box set. Sent if for shinsa, and they split it on me: gave the menuki a Kaga-kinko paper and the kozuka a Yoshioka paper. To this day I don't undertand and wonder 'Wassup NBTHK?'. I understand the Yoshioka thoughts, but to this day still think it Kaga Goto work. Maybe I will feel differently in a few years. Even among this higher end stuff, opinion changes from decade to decade. Learned opinion may change, or it may simply be the changing of the judges.

I started collecting again in 1999. At that time some of the oldtimers in the NYC club would tell stories about him that were rather colorful. One or two of the oldtimers grumbled that there was more to it than 'an accident', I have never heard evidence of it to support their feelings. Just they lost someone they cared about in an undefined way. That Austin tanto was quite the historical discover and I was lucky to get to have it here for a bit. Being very early in his career, it was not a masterpiece- but surprisingly good for a student effort. I wish we saw more of his work. Edit: There was an effort 2004-2007 by the Sacrament group c.2004-2007 to get a publication out of his known works (tanto, tsuba, and a wak or two). Did this ever get achieved?

From the other site, I too thought a signature had been removed. Since it seems rather obvious, that would affect value- no? There was a gimei Nobukuni up on another dealer's site at a fair price not long ago. Funny thing was that if the signature were removed, I was pretty sure it would go to one of the 3 guys considered the "4th generation" Nobukuni. Interesting sidefact is that one of the Nobukuni smiths was either dyslexic or learned his signature wrong. He would sign the 'Kuni' character backwards. The shape of this one fits with shodai, though a bit small in some ways. Lacks some of the traces of influence I have seen on previous shodai works. In most regards, looks Oei Nobukuni to me. Still, tempting to me. I hope it goes to a good home and I see it again some day.

I second Sebastion's guess.

I knew I'd seen this one before. Same blade, different dealer: http://www.samurai-nippon.net/V-1137/index.html It would take selling my Morokage [yakiba.com] and a tsuba or two, but I would buy the Nobukuni. Sorry Tsuruta-san.... have not the liquid cash. Tis IRS season, and the govt takes the wallet now. If anyone can see the section of the papers I posted and tell me at least the verbs after Oei Nobukuni part, I would be appreciative.

:D The Japanese have a gift for choosing a near word, ever so slightly misspelled that is often sheer humor. They do it so well, one would think it the subtle intentional.

Yes. I fear Tsuruta-san's descriptions very much. Having recently picked up something I wanted for about 6 years, after placing a few things privately to get it- I'm pretty happy with what I have. Yet, were I wealthier, I would try for this at its opening bid.

Here is the part I question: "Oei Nobukuni _____ _____ shitte iru." (see image below) Also, what throws me is the suken head is deeper and the gombashi horimono are both typical of Oei Nobukuni. Ron brought up kantei by horimono recently, and normally I'd say this is difficult. However, with Nobukuni there are enough horimono and signatures that some analysis by horimono has been done in the big ole Horimono book (I forget the author's name, but can scan the book later tonight). Though some variation in the early works, the width is a bit narrow for shodai or nidai, and more in keeping with sandai. I'm not questioning the NBTHK at all. I just thought Tsuruta-san might have made a wrong translation in English. The Oei Nobukuni Juyo went off for about $23-25,000 which I thought high. This one seemed to be priced more in keeping with a Juyo Oei Nobukuni. EDIT: The blade is shorter than I thought. The measurements I have on file for Oei Nobukuni O-tanto are all more around 14 inches (+- 1 inch). Length relative to width, I more realize the shape here and understand 'shodai'. From the photos, I had thought it was longer. Still, I appreciate the help on understanding the papers.

Jean: ~ Yes. Mumei Oei Nobukuni Juyo was sold by this dealer: http://ginzaseikodo.com/englishhome.html I was surprised, because I too thought Muromachi mumei would not pass Juyo. I have since noted a two or three that have. Each instance, earliest Muromachi and a bigger name + ubu. I thought as you do, but see the gate has not slammed at 1394. It appears a few have gotten their foot in the door. I think the rule holds for 99.9% of mumei muromachi blades.

Had to look up the characters for Enbun. Why the mention of Oei Nobukuni? I cannot read (or barely even see) the kanji for the verb after it. Thank you for the translation. I am very surprised that this is Shodai Nobukuni. I would have thought early sandai.

Tsuruta-san has this Nobukuni up at a 'too good to be true' price: http://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-mumei ... juyo-token He says Shodai. Yet I looked at it and immediately thought Oei Nobukuni (3rd or 4th gen depending upon how you count). I've noted a few mumei ones getting across the Juyo line in the last decades. The papers just say 'Mumei Nobukuni'. Reading through I see bits and pieces of Tsuruta's write-up, but does it not say towards the end that it is Oei period? Ie. Late Nambokuchu / early Muromachi ? 1390-1400.

Hi and thanks guys. The ebay items were just meant for a fun way to get some feedback. The menuki and fuchi-kashira boxes were left over from a koshirae restore where the items mounted on a new tsuka. Each time I go to ebay, it seems the filters and rules changed. I was surprised when David ran into a filter problem. Europe: not so much. I run into all sorts of things with various Italian, French, and Spanish items. David: I believe we are technically a 'purple' state, though it is extremely regional and depends upon where the retirees come from. Those down I-95 = democrat. Those down I-75 = republican. Eventually the sun addles them all.

Stephen, Not a problem for me. Thanks for bidding.

Confounding! No mention of swords, knives, or nihonto. Listed under collectibles.Japan.1900-> now Just a menuki box, f/k box, and a tsuba box each starting at $1. The French need protected from boxes and pillows? Meanwhile, in the place of my youth: http://tinyurl.com/qzhpo68

The name and description says it all: #1 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-wood-b ... 20e236e367 #2 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-wood-b ... 20e237004e #3 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-wood-b ... 20e23757f5 and there should be a #4 up soon: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Obijim ... 20e23791d4

John, thank you. That was fast. The sad thing is I have made this exact same mistake before. I have looked up these guys, and found a Note to Self not to make this mistake again.... and make correct change to my kanji reference. Taking a few minutes to go through the Bonhams NYC Oct 2012 Auction catalog, I see three other tsuba of various renderings of the rain dragon vs tiger, often with a mountain somewhere in the design as a third element.

在哉 I am looking at a funny (comic) tsuba, and wondering how to read the artist's name: 在哉 Is it: Sa-suke Sa-chika Sa-toshi Suke-chika Suke-toshi Yoshi-suke Yoshi-chika Yoshi-toshi Theme is a Rain Dragon pouring rain down on a Tiger, who does not look happy as it runs away. The rain dragon looks to me like it is smiling a bit. Tsuba condition is a bit damaged, but the box has a sticker that claims it had Tokubetsu Hozon papers at one point.... now missing. I have seen this theme before on a nice tsuba at Bonhams auction two years ago. On that one, there was a bamboo thicket on the other side towards which the tiger appears to be running to escape the rain. Maybe it is a well known story?

I got a different translation. :lol: paraphrase [Design created by Shingen, but none (considered?) made by him. Earliest are early Edo, but great most late Edo low grade.] To add to that, I now have 3 different versions of Torigoye-Haynes translations. 1 is much more like your Nihonto Koza translation than the other two. Beginning to wonder how much is lost in translation, or added in translation. Bunch of monkeys we are.... Consensus seems to: (1) be none are actually by him. (2) a minority favor him having a link to them, a slim majority say he has nothing to do with them (3) opinions place some at early Edo. Personally I've never seen one I'd date before the very late 1600s.

Christian: An 'F' is a failing grade in the USAmerican Public School System, and perhaps some private or religious schools (Catholic school, per Peter's joke). I pulled up 3 sources, and was looking for a 4th. I will say they all disagree slightly. I'm not going to post the private translations we'd paid for nor the private notes of those deceased, for the reasons you understand. Might as well post the Nihonto Koza for starters. Then go from there. If it is only Ford and me, I'm not going to bother. Note: I've fixed the orientation twice and saved it down before posting. Yet it is still testing wrong orientation. I think you guys can figure out which end is up, and adjust accordingly. Nihon To Koza Shingen.pdf

Myth. A genesis myth in this case. While myths are generally considered stories, stories are not all myths. My mistake was to include his underlyings (generals and others). That I retract. Still, a myth. Don't call it a story. The quickest [but not conclusive] go-to reference on this is the paintings. I'm not sure when the oldest "24 Generals" scroll dates to, but I didn't find a version I could expand to satisfaction. Also, there is doubt an early Japanese painter would go to that level of detail even on a 'group photo' scroll. Probably we won't find any 'Shingen' tsuba there. It would surprise me pleasantly if we did, but I doubt that result. Then we move forward in time and paintings until we see something, if ever. I have seen them before on scrolls, one in particular coming to mind- but I did not purchase it. You quote Joly. I quote Torigoye/Haynes. No reason we cannot stand on the same stage and chose different people. To throw a bone, Torigoye is talking about northern manufacture that sounds rather far from Takeda Shingen's base. That too would further support these are a later development, even if you think more of Joly than Torigoye/Haynes. If you disagree with Torigoye/Haynes on the DIY aspect.... that these are somehow higher forms of art beyond bluecollar.... well, whatever. You are entitled to your opinion. Just like myths as subset of stories, {basket} weaving can be high Art, but not all baskets are Art. Nor do I think most of these tsuba are Art beyond the skillset of a man, or his wife.[per quote]. My host father in Japan made Art out of cigarette package wrappers that is higher art than most of these Shingen tsuba. I have no problem taking a photo of his work and posting it here, if you doubt the ingenuity of an average bluecollar Japanese man to make one of these Shingen tsuba out of a Saotome: given enough time, interest, and possible financial motivation. This is not to say that they were all made this way, but rather to support the Torigoye/Haynes notion that many of them could be DIY jobs.

Yes, it does point to the trend starting about 100 years after Shingen as DIY tsuba. [some disagreement there, as late 1600s to mid Edo depending on source] Quote: "the Japan myth". I don't hate the myth. Joly jotted a few of them down. People tend to enjoy them, and some such as those about Takeda Shingen become popular. "The name for this type of tsuba is taken from the famous Daimyo Takeda Shingen (Harunobu)(1521-1573). It is said that he favored this style of tsuba. Unfortunately there is no proof of this and we can find no evidence that he ever wore such a tsuba on any of his swords. It would seem that by the mid Edo period there were many old Saotome wheel tsuba around. Since they were no longer in fashion, why not use them for a new style that could be sold. In the long winters of the North, one could not do the amount of work one wanted and there was time to wrap such a tsuba. All it took was patience. It could be done by any worker or even his wife." Given what is known of Shingen's personality, I am willing to accept the myth as genesis point for these and live with my own opinion. Enough of them do seem to be based upon older Saotome tsuba that I will accept the Torigoye-Haynes writing over the Joly. I shouldn't have written about 'underlyings', as that is my misguided mistake. The crocheting kabuto is nice Ford buffo.

http://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free- ... ge21386376 Of the many observed, I did once come across a unique old tsuba of this sort fascinatingly manic crude but somehow hypnotically pretty. That one almost got me to consider whether just a 'style' or something more with a grain of historical truth to it. I had settled upon thinking Shingen or shingen-style came from Japan myth that Shingen was a bit OCD and would play with weaving wire in and out of tsuba as a habit to keep himself calm while waiting [encampment activity while 'waiting'] sort of like Trench Art of the World War. I never got the sense Shingen's were suppose to be artistic, though underlings picked up on his habit and started pursuing it as Art or some form of minor philosophy. A nervous habit taking on greater significance by other people. I've seen one or two truly astounding WWI works done out of artillery shells, and one or two Shingen tsuba with that level of spirit and workmanship.

John, You have me a bit confused. Maybe I am translating the website Japanese wrong. I linked to a Naokatsu tsuba. David linked to two different tsuba both by Naoaki, a student of Naokatsu...and apparently also a student of famed Natsuo [i didn't know that until I just looked it up 2 minutes ago]. Either way, we seem to be hitting a fairly tight grouping on the dart board. Naokatsu had a son named the same, doing similar work, and possible a grandson. I think St. Louis Ron here on the board has a few tsuba from this school, but might be getting my wires crossed.