Curran

John, Reinhard, Brian, gentlemen: This thread has changed a fair bit from the title. I am late to read through it. Brian, I ask that you don't lock it- as the discussion does not seem heated to me. Reinhard has taken it to a more advanced level and John's post also has a wide field to it. For the most part, I think I should listen (not add noise to a good discussion) in this thread. I agree with much of what Reinhard has said and actually feel he is touching on some things which are best understood by artists who have been taught one way then later encountered another way. But also, more than a choice or understanding of perspective comes the caveman question of technology and tools with the Blackships and everything that followed (I am sorry, but it gets too broad a topic). Be it the button, the clock, the steamship, etc... I've attached an image of a tanto koshirae I own. I acquired it long ago and keep expecting to see something similar in Toppei koshirae of the time <>. The locking mechanism is very functional, yet seems a mix of eastern and western perspective in its engineering. The relevance is just that technology influenced the art as well as the science of perspective. Curran

Mostly late late Edo, I believe. I can recall several examples from memory. The only thing to add: more than once a tsuba I've seen in black and white photography from the older books (mostly pre 1980) has turned out to have mother of pearl inlay when seen in real life. This has happened to me a few times. But I cannot recall any from pre 1800. Maybe Ford can. He has a better memory catalog than me, especially for the use of certain materials.

Nice Higo or Edo Higo tsuba, and koshirae from the looks of it. Two matching ana are rather common among the Higo design. Curran

Mei can be on the left or right side, more depending on the wish of the artist (or forger) signing it. Yes, it is usually on the side with the predominant art facing outward for show- ie. toward the tang so the external observer can see the artwork when sword is worn. Signatures on the seppa dai (central oval support area) are hidden be the tsuka (handle) mounting the sword and not generally seen when the sword is worn. Sometimes a tsuba will be signed on the opposite side (less artistic side facing the blade), but this is the exception to the general rule: most often seen in late period Edo tsuba. I have one tsuba with a dedication covering the seppa dai of the front, so the artist signed it on the backside. To illustrate the Late Edo fact: that tsuba is dated 1856 in the dedication.

James H, It was the interface I was using. It was cutting off the bottom of posts. PM message to you too. Curran

I would agree. My Echizen Shimosaka very much resembles Peter's in appearance. Rather than be combat driven, it may have been more of a nationalistic en-vogue of some such fashion. Some other interesting pieces of a military symbolistic bent more than functionality seem to originate from that brief period. The example that comes to mind is this: http://www.nihonto.ca/takahashi-nobuhide/index.html I think I saw it in San Fran years ago. Nice piece.

Ford, Thank you for the breakdown of your reasoning. The plate and the precision definitely made me think of Yonemitsu's work, though I've only seen three or four. I've wanted to own one. It has been told to me that Yonemitsu produced very few tsuba. Perhaps as low as 30 or 40. Ottou812 (it isn't posting your name on my screen)- If you or anyone you know well is an NBTHK member, you would probably do best to write to the NBTHK and inquire about the signature. A polite letter would probably yield much better insight at less cost than shinsa. I've done so on a tsuba or two in years past. In terms of what your seller may or may not know about the tsuba, to be very honest... I think it probably has more notoriety and monetary value as a Yonemitsu or skilled student of Yonemitsu work than it does as a late Edo Higo work. If the seller believed it to be late Edo Higo work, then that is his/her minor mistake in your favor. This is just my opinion. The technical rendering of the tsuba and the signature itself both make me think 20th century of a skilled tsuba artist. Curran

Interesting mitsumune on yours. I don't have pictures of mine, but it it Echizen Shimosaka and a nudge over 1cm thick. Not quite 1/2 inch thick. It is original to a Toppei Koshirae with locking mechanism that was given Tokubetsu Hozon papers and also dates from around 1865. Yoroi doshi tanto seem to have enjoyed a real en vogue around that time.

I thought as Ford did, that it was extremely good contemporary work. I didn't know he was a student of Yonemitsu. That would explain it. Nice tsuba. Funds wanting at the moment, but I wouldn't mind owning it at another time.

Ted, thank you. You've been a good teacher for a long time. Endless thanks to Brian, as the NMB has grown and grown over the years.

Nice Kanayama-Owari. Not sure what else to say. Iron looks good. Probably Early Edo.

Dave, There are a few of us living in various parts of south Florida. You may wish to indicate which coast and roughly where, then consider a visit with the appropriate person if they are willing. Also soon there is the (last) Tampa Sword Show held the 2nd weekend of February (12, 13, 14?) at the Tampa Marriott. If anywhere near, you maybe should consider attending that one day.

Dave's Echizen Kinai is definitely different from most that we see. I think we can agree there are many a dragon in the Echizen tsubas, but not sure if I've seen a Dragon Fish like that in Echizen before. Nice Shakudo shim too. School mixes such as the slight Umetada feel to this one certainly do pop up in late Edo. One of the many tsuba I've been forced to sell off the past few years was a nice cloissone work thought by most to be unsigned Hirata. The multiple cloissone butterflies and two tones of gold clematis flowers were done on an iron basketweave background. Perhaps for this reason (the iron basketweave tsuba plate) the NBTHK decided to paper it to "Bushu" which seemed an odd call. The Bushu-Hirata was one of the odder cross works. The Umetada elements in this Kinai example work fine together, especially given that we see the dragon-fish in a fair number of later Umetada works. John, thanks for posting it. Curran

Henry- I recognized this tsuba from the koshirae listing it was with. I like the longevity theme and would have liked to owned this tsuba. My opinion is that it would most likely currently just paper as 'Ko-Akasaka', but I would place it as 2nd gen or by student of 2nd gen perhaps later in the career. Second gen seemed to be fond of the squiggly versions of rendering grass and branches. Not very scientific, but that is by first impression without looking it up more in the few references I have.

Age: 37 First was exposed to Nihonto while a student in Aichi prefecture 20 years ago. An elder neighbor had 2 swords and was kind to share his small collection and his knowledge. My first item was a Choshu tsuba in 1992 found in an antiques shop. In 1999 I became more active in the hobby when my future wife transferred from New York to Tokyo. At the time there seemed few collectors under the age of 40. Since then, the ranks seem to have filled in a bit in the 30 something crowd. The few under 30 seem to remain the exception, as I once was. Perhaps it is a partial function of disposable income as career progresses.

Stephen, I'm not sure what transpired where, and not my place to stick my nose in it- I may have my head up my arse 90% of the time worrying about other things in life, but NMB is a daily break for me and I count as precious the few minutes I get to spend here even if I cannot be as active in the hobby as I'd like. I mentally thank Brian for it every day, and I wish I could correspond/contribute 1/10th as much as I'd like. Point is we've lost too many good people over the past few years. From the Keith Austin tanto to to many other times where I've silently enjoyed your posts... if you are thinking of leaving... reconsider. Please. I can't hold a gun to your head and make you stay, but you're one that I would if I could.

I had wondered who was selling this nice collection. When I was collecting actively and had a small collection of later Edo signed pieces I was proud of, Peter Klein sat with me at the Tampa Sword show and showed me fine tachi kanagushi pieces with a magnifier. I learned a much greater appreciation of their subtle aesthetic from Peter, and am thankful he took the time to discuss them in dept. It made me reconsider what I was collecting. Craig's listing with the descriptions is equivalent to a good intro sword show lecture on the topic. Before the SOLD ones are taken down, people interested should at least visit and read: http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/YBA2_CONSIGNMENT.htm

I agree with Barry: what a unique habaki to make. Tschernaga would probably say it is easy, but I would imagine it to be difficult. Given that the deep groove doesn't go all the way down the Yasukuni nakago, how was a habaki properly fitted to this sword? Does the mune return so wide that a normal habaki is fitted leaving just a large bowl like shape under one edge of the habaki? Interesting item Stephen- Before looking at the signature and the NBTHK Hozon papers, my very first thought was it might be one of those crazy Kaifu province O-tanto or wakizashi blades that often seem to come in different shapes. Curran

John or Ford, If you ever decide to write up the Scythian discourse- please send me a copy. I learned much appreciation for the Etruscan art at the north end of their domain by being practically buried in it (forgive the minor joke in that), but know nothing of Scythian work and doubt our local libraries will have much. Carlo- If you want to trade jobs and house, I will do it with you right now... I couldn't get a job Monte dei Paschi even when living in/near Siena. Eventually I did get semi-legalized by taking a job at the Universita di Scienza Economica e Bancare down the street, and spend the next few months being secretary to economists partying in Siena as they contemplated forming the EC -->(EU). The caretakers of many of the Etruscan items were very good people, but the items not particularly guarded. But as I said, it was a long time ago. Maybe they are gone now, but in those times I could have taken several paintings from the Uffizzi with little more than an Exacto knife and a minor distraction. Security was incredibly lax. To work on a stairwell, they let the masons pick up the nearby paintings and move them casually by hand around the corner.

One of the other list members has a nice pair of greaves menuki that might make a nice compliment to these menuki. A long long time ago (galaxy far away), I worked as ~lavoro nero~ (illegal labor) as a stone mason on a large group of estates in Tuscany repairing many historical structures. Long story made short: in the depths of late fall and winter when not much work could be done at certain times- I found myself hanging with artisans, grad students, locals, and other "off season" residents discussing Etruscan items and touring storage places with caretakers. Most of the conversation was in Italian with about 90-95% comprehension. During that brief time, I saw probably about 20x more pieces (think thousands, maybe 10,000+ if I were to count all the funeral urn/caskets) than have seen in all western museums combined. I hope to this day they are not still store housed in those places from Voltera to the coastline. We would roadtrip out to some of them being nothing more than storage barns. Etruscan goldsmithing seemed to be much better than Roman, though there was to my eye a sad change in perspective with increasing Helvetic influence. My understanding was that their unique innovation was primarily the development of gold bead through dropping in water similar to the early american production of round bullets in shot towers. The only thing that reminded me of it in Japanese artwork was Tomei's millet, and even that isn't done quite the same way. Kill me for hijacking the thread here- but John and Ford... what were other Etruscan innovations? Any references I can read. I did a search about 15 years ago, but didn't find much in English that was any good.

My thought was like John's. I see what I thought was a Tembo tsuba decorated with Shinto religious elements (the flaming jewels and rope with paper

Mark, --Wah! My wife likes that tsuba. Who is the artist? Reinhard, Your skills at photography are better than mine. Thank you for sharing. I was just wondering if there was any point along the false seppa shadow where the dark paint or patina of the false shadow gave evidence it was not correct. It would probably take an expanded photo to show this. I thought maybe the plug in the kozuka ana is lower or higher than the plate and it might explain how the shadow skips a bit from the plug to the plate. The seppa shadow seems to be off at the bottom of the eliptical shape. It is just "thinking aloud" on how this was done and how it is detected. If I looked under a microscope, maybe I could forensically tell. Maybe not.

Reinhard, It is nice to see this Myoju tsuba. Two days ago I had to look over one of the many gimei tsuba claiming to be in his name. Very precise little tsuba, but not this feel. It is interesting this topic of a Nara tsuba with the "fake" print of the seppa-dai. Is there anything in micro detail that helps empirically illustrate it better? Maybe the way the seppa dai print shifts on the kozuka plug? A nice gent sent me images of a daisho tsuba set the other day and asked me if I thought they were correct. There were a few things about them that made me pause slightly. Some odd detail hammering in the soft metal that might be more 20th century and the tsuba were incredibly "flawless", however many things seemed correct about the execution of the two tsuba. Both tsuba showed seppa dai usage, but were otherwise very perfect for anything that had seen usage to leave such strong seppa dai marks. I do not mean to sideline the discussion of aesthetics, but would like to hear more about the seppa dai marks.

Guido- His name is Robert Hunt. He is classic gentleman, an excellent writer, and very interesting person to know. He served in law enforcement for many years and has published several books.

Better pictures. Thank you. With a bit of ivory clean up, some pocket time (or occasional TLC with undyed felt or denim), it should make the tsuba all that much nicer. Definitely a large one. I had considered relating it to tea wares, but my grasp of 'wabi' or 'sabi' is not very academic. Be careful/cautious of rubbing the shakudo in any work on the tsuba.