Curran

Interesting thread. Fred Geyer has done much work on the religious symbols in some tsuba. He might be the person to ask. This cross or X shape tsuba appears in some of the Higo area work. In the Baur collection there is even a Mitsuhiro tsuba (the 1000 monkeys theme) done in this shape. I do not think the shape means much. I have wondered about this tsuba here: http://www.yamabushiantiques.com/TSUBA22.htm It belongs to Boris. My religious upbringing is fuzzy, but I saw this image all through my youth. The bird doing the nose dive above the pile of brush or kindling, with the three hills (of Calgary) in the distance. From memory, the cross was always dead center above the brush and below the bird. Protestant symbol though.... How many protestant christians in Japan? Clever speculation by Bugyotsuji. Makes for a good riddle. Curran

Dear Guido, It has changed exponentially since the 1990s. Thanks to the internet, cell phones, hybridization of ATM cards with other accounts.... Easy ex: With your basic bank info and a little personal info a good hacker/spoofer/fraudster can get phone access to your account and build out from there. They can then apply for a wave of minor accounts and link them to yours and rip them off with advances, etc... very fast. The good ones can rip $100,000+ out of a bank account within about 7 to 10 days. From discussions with people in the security side of this: Citibank has been a repeated target and they are slow to improve security, plus those india call centers of theirs are not secure.

Dear Stephen, The shape of the tsuba is that often seen in the Satsuma tsuba. Do you have the little Satsuma book? Perhaps Milt or someone else does and can post an example. The horse briddle bits is something I do not recall seeing on tsuba very often.

I think 97.5% of the time I agree with Peter. This may be one of those times when I don't, but I should explain why. I've owned several late Tanaka school tsuba and handling them sticks into your head as they are pleasant and have a distinct degree of quality, though sometimes lacking "soul". I've sold all mine off, though my wife and I both like Jeff's example. I would think that someone would gimei (false signature) a piece by this fellow given that it is just late Edo student Tanaka, but then I've seen gimei before of lesser known late Edo individuals. Some truly beautiful tsuba with signatures that are not correct. I don't think this one is gimei. I think the workmanship is good enough and the signature good enough that it *should* pass shinsa as authentic. But there are enough minor variations of the signature and such that I doubt the conservative Yoshikawa NTHK would pass it and think maybe only 60% likely the NBTHK would pass it. All that said, this is a nicer tsuba. Hope you like it Jeff. Curran

Dear Brian, I know I should have explained more. Apologies. It was mostly a shoot-from-the-hip based on repetitive experience. Tsuba was very un-Jingo. My immediate thought was Mito Shoami or Aizu Shoami. In a nutshell: the weaving dragon and how it is engraved, the sort of mimi, the hitsu ana, and on and on.... Owned one or two like this when I started collecting. Not a bad place to start, but it is not on the level with the true Jingo stuff. Incidentally, I am in the minority in not liking the one on Ricecracker. I dont think it is that good of a Jingo. When I think Jingo, I think something like this: http://www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/image/76409276 I'll buy that one, if I can find a good local bank to rob. (joking, honestly Feds.... joking!)

Late Edo Shoami. Not Jingo.

There is a special tanto koshirae I am interested in purchasing from a friend some day in the future. He had me look at it and confirm signatures on it, including the menuki signed Mitsuoki (all has Toku Hozon papers). He told me the blade inside it was a Kanetomo (also Toku Hozon papers) and I thought 'oh, decent smith' but I really didn't give much of a damn since my brain was focused on the koshirae. Then I finally saw the blade this past fall. It made me stop and think, "okay maybe one of these c. 1500s Kanetomo guys was extra good or had a good day". Since then it seems I've seen two or three good Kanetomo. Of particular note is that the jigane has been tight and well forged in all of them. Better than I would expect in most 1500s Mino manufacture. Thanks for the post Jean. Curran

Milt, Reinhard, Ford, etc... Crazy tsuba that Ford posted. I thought it looks screaming modern. But are you sure it is Japanese? Not Italian, or product of one of two of the Americans currently pursuing such experiments in the USA? The two I have in mind have such an understanding of Japanese aesthetic that I strongly doubt them. More the wild stallion crazy horse, the oversized sword pommel, etc and a general roberto benigni exuberance made me wonder if it wasn't product of an EU lavoratore? Curious. I hope Ford has a good answer. I look forward to his reply on the Shigenori (sp? I forget the signature) as I just thought that one late Edo or Meiji mutt hybrid vigor tsuba, whereas this 'modan' he posted is much more interesting. Curran

envy. envy. envy. Stuck to a desk here and wishing I was there. I would like to have seen the Nagamitsu. I've seen a few over the years, and some (not all) have enchanted me. The variable utsuri on some can be fascinating.

I don't agree with Mr. Hallam and Mr. Reinhard. I've just seen too many of these late Edo (or meiji) ones floating around in old northeastern US private museum collections. All these little private collections were put together 1865 to 1930 and have a decent percentage of this less than meticulous work and signature with slightly better kinko on them. The pine tree sukashi seems to be rampant among them. Example of one from a mothball storage. Conspiracy theory is overwhelmed by the smell of mothballs, old boxes, and cobwebs. If Ford means that they were all post Meiji product for tourists, that maybe I could believe. Early on in my collecting I had a pair of menuki that came off a kaga iyetsugu wakizashi. They were of 'drunken foreigners under the cherry blossoms and street lamps'. They were of crude quality, but real. I regret selling them. Very atypically of much Japanese design, but I myself took them off the decaying tsuka. I do not think this tsuba is any less fake than the menuki. Please explain more when you have time.

I was looking at these papers for a Higo tsuba today, and don't know what is correct translation on the first two characters. "Go-shire?" I have the feeling that this is going to kill me with how simple the answer is... Instinct or latent memory says that these characters simply mean 'late' as in Higo from late edo period.

Beautiful tsuba. Yes, Haynes is a set of books you will never regret owning. Always amazes me more people don't own it, when it is such a monumental work.

Apologizing for bordering on cliche, yet here goes: They stress it is opinion. It changes. Sometimes for the better. Sometimes not. I've see green papers where the item gets resubmitted and I think the green papers are more correct than the new ones. Especially recently with the NBTHK supposedly having a huge backlog. Very sloppy at the Hozon level. On the flipside I get impressed by some NBTHK calls as I slowly learn more and some of their calls unravel to me. I also respect and yet am sometimes bothered by how strict the Yoshikawa NTHK seems to be on papering items. But then the other NTHK seems a bit too carefree and papers many fittings that I don't think should get papers.... but hey....that is just my opinion. It could change. Milt, ~my opinion~ is they (Yoshikawa) should have papered that kozuka of yours- but maybe I need to study more. ______________________________________________________________________________ Regarding John's question... I don't know with swords. The answer seems to be 'it depends'. It is understood in some schools (like Hizen) and even occassionally noted or implied on sword papers. As for fittings, Peter is right in that gimei is gimei most of the time. I've attached an image of a tsuba I own and enjoy. I believe it to be signed by Norisuke I on the front and Norisuke II (early signature was Norishige) on the back. The Norisuke were known as master forgery artists, often commissioned to make copies of famous pieces. They also made their own designs. This design (photos) is one of the last designs ever done by Norisuke I slightly before his death, but I think the overall working is by the hand of Norisuke II. Norisuke II is considered to be slightly more talented than Norisuke I. Despite both Norisuke I & II being very prolific, no one in Japan or elsewhere seems to have ever seen a joint signed work- so I was very happy to come by this tsuba! Now the interesting part: There are one or two things about the signature by Norisuke I on the front that I was unsure about, but then the two major Norisuke books seem to disagree amongst themsleves. I sent all this to the NBTHK and have not heard back. Okay, so I track down an individual in Japan that is widely respected for his knowledge and has a strong interest in Norisuke... His opinion is that the tsuba was done by Norisuke II and that Norisuke II forged his teachers signature on the front! If that is true.... how would you classify this tsuba? Does a forgery of a famous forgery master by his adopted son and student master forgery artist = gimei ? It is easiest for me to hold the idea that this was a tsuba completed by student for his teacher when his teacher could no longer complete a commission.... ... but how does the current papering paradigm of 'shoshin' treat such a thing? Short version: I haven't got an answer for you John. I think the Yoshikawa NTHK does much more than the NBTHK to educate, but I'm not sure they can go to that level of detail at shinsa and give a 'conditional qualifier' papers... but I certainly understand. If the gentleman in Japan is correct and were to bounce the Norisuke tsuba because of the signature on the front, I am not going to think anything less of this tsuba. Curran

One of the list members corrected me: The fuchi / kashira at Choshuya was on the website at 450,000 yen but seems to have been drawn off the website. It was in the January issue of the catalog at 400,000 yen. They'd somehow 3-D functioned its view. Shozui work often seems to be noted by at least a few elements of recess into the object and the rest built up to give it a 3-D effect. On my fuchi / kashira, the 4th leg of the deer is recessed into the kashira. The 1st leg is built up slightly as if standing out a bit more. it was explained to me that a kantei point is also the gauge (correct use of the term ?) of his materials tends to be very thick. Ie. The walls of his fuchi/kashira and the central copper plate are very thick compared to the fuchi of other makers. That would stand with the kozuka Peter listed, as the material looks 'plush'. For whatever reason, there are an awful lot of gimei of his work out there. But he also lived a long life and produced a good bit. It is within my ability to believe that some of his students signed works with his name. As the '4th member' of the Nara San-Saku... he was popular. Perhaps it was superstition against saying the Nara Yon-Saku? Pops up alot. Iesuke derves the #3 slot among Oei Bizen swordsmiths, but it is more fun to say Oei no San Mitsu (3 Mitsu of Oei: Yasumitsu, Morimitsu, and Moromitsu) than place Iesuke at #3. Random thought of the day. Shozui got shafted. I really like some of the Shozui menuki, but am mostly an iron collector. I haven't picked up the Nara-San Saku book. Peter, is this the one in which the writer expoused his own views and much of the Japanese authorities disagree with him... or am I confusing it with another text? There is one in which the photography is all black and white, which is a shame for the colorful kinko work photographed.

It looks gimei to my eyes. $1000 seems a bit much, but then a papered f/k by Shozui is on Choshuya for 400,000 yen. Was worth a gamble for somebody. I'm surprised one without papers went for so much. I have a Shozui f/k in a fitted custom box with NBTHK Hozon papers that I was thinking of consigning with a dealer or selling to a Japanese dealer, but if if a gimei one can bring so much- maybe I should give eBay a whirl at it first.

Dear Bear Sterns, $2 ? Love, J.P. Morgan P.S. For those of you not familiar with the current shennanigans in I-banking, the real bargains were had Monday purchasing a $7.5 billion dollar bank for $250 million.

For those interested: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZnycurran Bid early, bid often. Help fund my wife's new silverware habit. Curran

Dear Reinhard, I do not understand your point. Please explain more. The Hirotoshi tsuba of the cranes looks to be gimei. Did you intend to illustrate this? I have attached a tsuba by Hirotoshi (aka. Hironaga). Sorry that the image is highly reflective, so it looks poor. It was papered by NBTHK to the founder of the Uchikoshi (sp?) school.

An individual not near any sword clubs has sent me some photos of a sword that appears to be a WW2 made blade. Blade is signed Bishu ju Masatsune. A clean signature. I know very little about the WW2 smiths and don't have the Slough book. Anyone familiar with this smith or can point me to more information?

Very nice. Thank you for sharing.

A quick picture added. Apology for the self reflection in the glass, as it muddles the image a bit.

Thanks to all of you for this considerable help. This has been the 'mystery' painting in our house for years now. I have never been able to read the signature. I am much more comfortable with western painting history and technique. My wife and I both appreciate Japanisme / Art Nouveau and the echoes of its influence in places like Glasgow and the USA. We also see many works where Japanese artist studied in Europe or european modes. I think this painting is from 1870 to 1910? I am much more comfortable dating canvas and frames than I am silk. Checking the back of the frame, the wood, and the tooling of some of the fasteners, I think the frame is closer to 100 years old. The painting has been with the frame a long time. The glass is very old with micro bubbling. There are elements about the frame that make me wonder if it was not made by a turn of century furniture maker. The silk shows fine age, and could be considerably older- ....... but the painting style has some european rendering tricks such as the birds slight head turn relative to the flowers and the brushstroke pattern in the way that some of the flower buds are rendered. I have been wrong before, thinking something of nature theme shows European influence- only to find it predates most european influence. But it is a bit strong in this painting. The full scale painting is understated, but very good to excellent. Given its size, I wonder if it was not a screen panel? The dark wood drame works, but a heavy mantle for the painting. The painting seems too large for a scroll. It is likely the artist is minor or unknown. The brushwork is exception and layout is very well rendered, but there were wave after wave of exceptional art and artists during those years. Okada Oson or another late 1800s artist is more likely. Thank you again. It feels great to finally make progress with this painting. Best wishes, Curran

Moriyama-san, Thank you for posting those links. There were many interesting ones in there, and I find some of the style rendering elements interesting. My primary hobby or interest is painting, though I know little of Japanese schools and next to nothing about Japanese prints. I would like to ask a favor for help with a painting that I believe is Japanese. It was purchased from Denmark a number of years ago. It is on silk and framed. Frame age is 75 to 100 years old and been with the painting for a considerable amount of time, so the painting is no younger than that. The painting is on silk and the size is 60 cm wide by 130 cm tall. Design is vine and flowers with a sparrow in the center. Silk is old, but the rendering is somewhat of western perspective, so I have always thought the painting dates from 1850 to 1900. I enjoy this painting, but I know nothing about its age or the painter. I have tried before in other forums to learn more, but never gotten response. I can provide more pictures. I deeply appreciate any help or direction to individuals that can help me identify this painting or to learn more about the artist. Curran Campbell

Auction is over now, so those with the courage and energy to stick their necks out please feel free to speak: I choose to disagree. Think it a nice fake. Too many odd things about the signature. Filing looks a bit off. Hada looks a bit off. Stamp is a bit different in the detail from the reference ones I have for Sadakazu. Wish the best to the new owner. The seller only guaranteed it to be Japanese, which it is. No legit reasons to cancel this auction, so we shouldn't see it again? Why is it worth 10k(?) when I can buy the NBTHK papered one with koshirae and a nice gold mon habaki from a decent dealer for $7500. Counterarguement: horimono and dated would add value. Still, I don't seen is worth 10k. It is a nice looking nihonto fish knife. If legit, it is perhaps a small bargain- but I'd much rather have Jacques example.

Jacques, Thank you for the photo. Beautiful. I have looked at a few more examples recently. I agree with your opinion.