Curran

Dear Brian, Thanks for the photo help. Reading my old post from August reminded me that the one Japanese gentleman had argued the Niwa Norisuke signature was a forgery by Iwata Norisuke. I felt it was real, but had slight variations from those given for Niwa Norisuke in the Owari ToSando no Tsuba book. Really an interesting papering dilemma if Iwata Norisuke forged his teacher's signature! _______________________________________________________ I still think it a bit odd what the NBTHK does at Hozon level these days. I sent a Higo tsuba that had attributes of two Higo sub schools. Someone later successfully convinced me was mid to c.1800 Nishigaki. It came back as "Higo". Well duh!?!. There is also a tsuba up for auction now with Hozon papers to 'Kanayama Den'. Wow that is vague... either it is "Kanayama or Kanayama like". With the yen so strong, it has gotten very expensive for even Hozon papers. The increasing number of vague attributions is off putting. Toku Hozon was always expensive and this Norisuke Norishige co-signed was definitely my last Toku Hozon submit for a while. Not sure I would dare submit anything unsigned to Hozon if the attributions are so vague these days. It was a fun tsuba to research. Lots of back and forth on whether the Niwa Norisuke signature was correct. Curran

Hmm, I thought I'd made the photos small enough they didn't need to be clicked on to be viewed. What are the size constraints Brian?

I traded for this tsuba 2 years ago and sent it for NBTHK papers last summer. It just came back with Toku Hozon papers and a letter from Tanobe-san. I haven't had much to add to this community of late, so figured I would share this. Background: As can be read in Art & Sword #3 or other tsuba texts, 1st Gen and 2nd Gen Norisuke were skilled artisans employed by the Owari Tokugawa. They were especially known as master forgers of Yagyu, Yamakichibei, and other types of tsubas- though they often signed them. Though prolific, they almost never co-signed a tsuba. Quality varied, as they had some master works and then some rather straightforward tsuba. This design pictured is considered the last or near last to be by Niwa Norisuke (1st gen). It can be seen in the Norisuke Tusba book as well as the Owari Tsuba book. On the reverse, it is dated late in 1850. He supposedly died April 17th, 1852. I am sorry that I cannot post an image of that tsuba at present, but it is near identical in execution. Iwata Norisuke (2nd gen) is known to have used 'Norishige' as early as 1849 in correspondence and there is a tsuba signed by him as Norishige. He took over as master in December of 1851. The tsuba I have is more in the handwork of Iwata Norisuke (2nd Gen), but is signed on the front by Niwa Norisuke and on the back by 'Norishige' (aka. Niwa Norisuke). Unable to find any evidence of joint signed pieces, I didn't know if it would paper. I wondered who would forge the work of two master forgers!? My best guess is that it was made some time during 1851 before Iwata Norisuke took over as master. Perhapse it was done by Iwata Norisuke to assist Niwa Norisuke in the completeing of a commission? Just a guess. Tanobe-san says there is record of other joint signed tsuba by Niwa and Iwata Norisuke, but that this is the only photographed one. It was a fun tsuba to research. I am not able to actively collect at present, but this tsuba was quite an adventure. I hope others get to stumble across a challenging one now and then. Curran

Interesting thread. Any more ideas?

2 cents more to the conversation: This tsuba was on Yahoo!Japan. I wasn't confident on the signature and didn't have much money at the time (less now), so passed on it. I seem to remember it selling for sub $1000, which shocked me as I've seen clear gimei go much more than that. I thought someone had gotten a steal. Then it was on Ebay in the USA and I did not see what the auction closed for, though I believe it was Po-Edo (aka Posservice), selling it. It was only later that I spotted it in the Hartman collection and wondered if it was the same tsuba that had round-tripped back to Japan. I liked the theme. Curran

Or Shoami, possibly Aizu shoami.

Dear Dan, I agree with the comments of Mr. Reinhard, Brian, and Grey. You've managed to find a community here of fairly knowledgeable individuals that will help for the sake of simply enjoying to see an old collection come back into the sunlight for a bit. Many of us would enjoy seeing them, confirming identity (concensus on unsigned pieces is not going to be perfect, but there are some very skilled individuals here) as well as comment on whether the signatures on signed pieces are real or forgeries. Before moving to Florida, I did this 3 times to help several small private museum collections in the North East. Many had been put together pre-WWII by wealthy individuals traveling to Japan and were full of false signatures, but there were some incredible treasures too. Despite neglect, many of the iron ones had not suffered so badly. Unfortunately some of the kinko ones were inappropriately handled and had long term finger prints on the patina. Still, it was the most fun I've had in this hobby outside of Japan. Dan, if you are willing- take photos and share. I miss this sort of exercise. Sincerely, Curran Campbell

Dear Richard, East coast or west coast of Florida? We are in Sarasota. I no longer collect blades and sold most of mine, but don't mind taking a look at a blade now and then. I still have most of my Nihonto library and it would be nice to make use of it. There are so few collectors down here. Curran

Shan and John, Further apology to John in that I was mistakenly referencing a thread on Masayoshi that had also mentioned Hirotoshi. I had missed the thread he mentioned from September. I came by this Hirotoshi years ago in the breaking up a a large collection with many gimei in it. I thought the signature legit and purchased it more as a "bargain" than any expertise in the area of Mito related works. John probably has a much better understanding of the school than I do. The overall tsuba workmanship is very skilled _ much moreso than evident in the photo I provided _ , but given their Hamano school influence I've wondered why the Uchikoshi faces were not more realistic. The sage is built up off the tsuba, but I don't think the 3-D aspect explains it. Uchikoshi figures often look a bit comic to me. Shan, the tsuba you posted has elements of Hamano in the figure. Definitely in the face. Yet the plate itself doesn't strike me as Hamano. Just my 2cent opinion. Sorry that I cannot help more. Other than a weakness for Norisuke work and ideally a nice higher level Jingo some day, I tend to prefer older simple iron sukashi. I put the Hirotoshi up for sale at Christies once, but had to pull it because they forgot to mention it was papered. Ironically, there was a similar looking gimei one in the same auction. John, if you know anything about the sage and waterfall theme- I'd love to learn a bit. It pops up in several of the late Edo school works, but I've never been sure to what it might be reference. The usual references like Joly haven't helped much. Curran

Shan and Doctor John, I think I owe John an apology in that I did not go back and re-read the entire previous discussion on this topic from September. I had not realized he'd posted information about others signing Hirotoshi. He sounds to have done a good bit more study in this area than I have. Shan, I am difficult on signatures. Not being a native reader of Japanese, I tend to doubt anything that isn't practically an identical match to the books. Consequently, I've seen pieces that I wasn't sure about that have papered.

Here is an image of mine, which has NBTHK Hozon papers. As the doctor commented, this topic has come up before. I'd forgotten the previous thread he mentioned. What bothered me about that thread was that people posted examples, but it was my feeling that many of them would not be considered legit at shinsa. Hirotoshi had quite a number of students and I sometimes wonder if the 'gimei' so often seen were works signed by students. Sometimes the designs are often very good and in keeping with the school. I've seen one of identical design to mine. The workmanship wasn't quite the same, but it was very decent and the signature relatively close. It made me think awful lot of work for what we call 'Gimei', but then Asian artist have often been capable of what some call "super fakes". In the Baur Collection book there is a good genealogy of this school. Curran

Yes- I do not follow these boards actively at present, but saw your message. I have a tsuba w/ Hozon papers to him. Remind me to post it later today after work. FYI- You will see examples in a variety of books, but he was a popular target for gimei. Many in the older books (museum collections and such) are considered gimei in comparison to Wakayama signatures. Some of them are good work, but maybe signed by his students? Curran

I think I've been aware of George's website for the better part of a decade. Either Jim Kurrash or one of the early webbers had a link to it. The site did not change for a very very long time. Because of my longstanding interest in Archery, I would visit it from time to time. I do not know if I ever corresponded with him. I believe he is in the UK, but that is distant memory whispering. The site declares itself non-commercial and I've never seen anything commercial on it. I lost my main computer in July and with it went many of my old Nihonto links. George's is one I forgot to refind. It seems he has dramatically updated and expanded since I last recall visiting. In expanding, it looks like he has stepped on a few copyright toes. I believe one of the fuchi (the sword smith one) belongs to an American collector. _________________________________________________________________________________ Thats all I know about that. (forrest gumpism)

Peter, I second Brian's motion. If you can put it into words, share a bit of what you are looking for on Nobuiye tsuba. Small confession: I like your Waterplant Nobuiye very much. Back when there was debate whether or not it would paper, I thought about making you an aggressive offer on it. I felt it was the first time I'd seen an unpapered one that I was at least +65% sure was legit (My confidence interval on the famous Nobuiye is not very high, so please teach what you can. I'm much better at recognizing Akasaka, Echizen, Myochin Nobuiye). For reasons of NBTHK politics and current state of Hozon shinsa, I wasn't sure the Japanese would paper your Waterplant Nobuiye. I am very glad it did. Beautiful piece. One you must seen in person to appreciate why Nobuiye is praised. Austin: I hope your find can be restored to proper condition like Peter's and that it passes NBTHK shinsa. Quite the story you have on it. Thanks for sharing. Curran

Wow. Nice fine Austin and good research by Peter. Yes, Peter is definitely the man when it comes to research and also to Nobuiye. I don't own Mosle- just one of the gaps in my library. I didn't even think to look in Torigoye. I didn't think the signature looked that good, but I liked the design and the workmanship nice if you could look past the current conditionto what it should look like restored a bit. I thought it more likely to be a side Nobuiye or a very nice plate someone had stuck a Nobuiye signature. I hope it can be carefully restored to better condition. Given the Torigoye link, this one probably should go to NBTHK shinsa sooner or later. It isn't a guarantee by any stretch, but certainly ups the probability in my eyes. Again though, I'd default to Peter as "The Brain" on this one. Curran

Hi. Pine needles and grain bales. Autumn theme I would guess. Looks like a nice tsuba. The shakudo plug is a bit on the funky side. Wonder if it were intended as a repair, as it seems off designwise without explanation. The famous Nobuiye were often gimei (false signature). At first glance your signature doesn't look very likely to be one of them. There were quite a handful of 'other' very legit Nobuiye of varying skill known often by their place of work name, such as Akasaka Nobuiye, Echizen Nobuiye, Kaga Nobuiye, Myochin Nobuiye, etc.. Their signatures are relatively documented. If you can get two or 3 very good images of the signature, I could give it a try to see if you have a match there. Be patient with me though, as work has been chaotic the last 2 weeks and doesn't look like it will stabalize soon. Curran

Dear John, It is my feeling the NBTHK has gotten inundated with shinsa items the past few years and gotten sloppy on the Hozon level. I've seen too many unsigned tsuba with papers to "Higo" (just Higo), "Shoami", or "Kyo-Kinko" when there is much more to them. If they go to Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa, the better ones get a more specific attribution- sometimes barely in the same ballpark as the Hozon papers. When it goes from "Shoami" as Hozon to "Kanayama" as Toku Hozon at a second shinsa... c'mon? A shinas judge said to me that, "(you) must ask yourself how much classification some tsuba deserve." Even just accepting the broader implications of that statement as fact, can we not infer it encourages a sort of shinsa overly quick triage survery which might miss the finer details to be seen in some tsuba when there are so many at a shinsa? While I can understand the logic of experts asking to be paid for the $500 Tokubetsu Hozon answer on top of the $175 answer for Hozon, I myself will say many tsuba don't warrant such expense. Between this and the shinsa judge opinion of Hozon, I think that we sometimes see a modern cheapening out of Hozon papers as a "lighter opinion". Again, let me stress this is my feeling on the matter. I'd like to attribute this kantei tsuba as something more than Kyo-Kinko, but if it has only Hozon papers from some time in the past few years, then I'm currently of the opinion the papers will say "Kyo-Kinko". ____________________________________________________ This feeling is directed primarily at the NBTHK, but then there are calls like Milt's tsuba where I respect the Yoshikawa NTHK fittings judges and wish they would explain why they gave his to "Kyo-kinko". I still think that one is something else. Maybe you (Milt) should post that one in a seperate thread.

Late Edo, fine nanako, insect theme, unsigned work.... often points towards Yoshioka very quickly. I've tried to upload an example of NBTHK Yoshioka tsuba that I owned a while back. As Guido said, I often go to a conclusion from the "gut", letting experience take me to conclusion quickly. Then sort of backtest it and see if it works. In this case I retracted my Yoshioka comment after a very short period of mental backtesting. I'd need agree with Guido that I don't think it is Goto. I'm not sure it is Yoshioka, because they tend to do their insects in gold and yet I don't think of their carving as crisp as this. However, the eyes of the insects are a bit simplistic. For whatever reason, I believe the Yoshioka could render eyes a bit better than this. I have and still own a beautiful late Edo tsuba with Shi-shi, fine nanako, and beautiful rose gold flowers. It is of similar shape to this one, though larger. Absolutely beautiful work that had several small things about it keeping it from falling into any one major school. People were quick to say Goto, but the NBTHK gave it to Kyo-Kinko- which was a major "cop-out" answer. I am hoping that this tsuba hasn't suffered the similar Kyo-kinko grabbag attribution. One thing of note, the Ichiryu Tomoyoshi (or is it Tomotoshi.. mental block here) could leave their ironwork and sometimes do beautiful nanako tsuba like this with fine small carving, but they were always signed and I haven't run across an insect one yet.

Brian, Hope you are feeling better. I believe I read in another thread that you were near pneumonia. As noted, I was bidding on a second generation NBTHK papered version of this tsuba last week only to have it yanked by the seller. That another should pop up so quickly with such a low Buy It Now was ~interesting~. Recognizing the formatting of the book and having just looked at it last week, I got the book off the shelf. It took me a second or two and then I had to double check the web listing to realize the photo had been doctored. Someone has bid on the tsuba, if it isn't the seller shilling his own auction. Anyone want to go after this puppy (bid on it), be my guest. If cheap enough, it might be a good buy. I'll stick to just watching this one and remember to be careful with this seller. Curran

Wow. Very nice. Yoshioka? No, maybe I should retract that answer and think on the nanako a bit. I'm not sure what other clues to to consider. Any clues on the actual insects themselves. The photos are good. Curran

That is exactly what I mean... They took a photo of the tsuba they are selling and overlaided or photoshopped it over the picture of the Sukashi Tsuba book. The page is identical, but the image of the tsuba is NOT! The image of the book is a partially falsified image. The designs are the same, but the one in the book is slightly thinner and more elegant. For starters: (1) The one in the actual book has no small sukashi opening under the kogai ana. (2) The sekigane are different. (3) The seppa dai on the one in the auction has a little node on it that doesn't exist in the photo in the actual book. I think I am just amazed at the effort the guy went to in order to sell the tsuba. That Buy It Now price is darn low for a Hayashi. This one is a bear trap he might be hoping someone steps in. Yahoo!Japan has gotten much worse in the past year or so. Many more crude gimei being dumped there now, with Posservice often buying them up and dumping them on USA eBay. Other sellers shill their own auctions and the one seller that I respected a bit pulled his most recent auction shortly before the finish when it wasn't getting enough bids. I was high bidder at the time and it had NBTHK Hozon papers. The seller of the doctored photo tsuba (sw_libro) doesn't even rank in the pantheon of bad sellers. I'm glad to see that this tsuba hasn't got any bids yet. Hasn't fooled anyone? At 20,000 I'd almost take it out of perverse curiosity to have the design for a bit. Worst case it is a paperweight for my desk.... but still shocked at what lengths he has gone to spin this auction. If anyone else has the Sukashi Tsuba book, crack it open to page 114 and take a comparison. The fonting and layout is very distinct. It is suppose to be the Sukashi Tsuba book. Curran

Moderators and others please jump in and correct me on this one- I'd like to be wrong. http://page2.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/b89504990 Looks nice, and the book photographed is suppose to be the Sukashi Tsuba book. If you own the book and flip it open to page 114 you see why yes-- it is the same tsuba. OR IS IT? Dah dah dum.... The tsuba is not the same as on page 114 of the Sukashi Tsuba book. Sure, design is the same as the actual tsuba from the book, but the tsuba for sale has been photoshopped or otherwise superimposed on an image of page 114 of the book and added to the auction. Perhaps it is naivete, but I am surprised to what level the seller (and he or she is often a seller) has stooped. It must be intentional. It isn't the same tsuba in the book, though the page is otherwise identical. My understanding of Japanese is improving, but still limited. Does the seller say anything to explain this in his auction? I read something about a crack, but am unsure to what or where he is actually referring.

Mr. Trotter, Welcome to the forum. Thank you for the contributions you have made. I think I still technically represent one of the 'young ones'. It is a good community here. We look forward to future posts and think it might be nice to hear a bit more about WWII era gendai. All in time. Curran

Dear Piers, I do not understand. I am 99% sure it is authentic, though I wonder why the shakudo fukurin. What am I missing? I am still learning Japanese and have ways to go. Does the auction actually say "No claims. No Returns."? Yahoo!Japan can be dangerous, but I thought this might be a safe one for Ken.

Ken (Mantis Dude), My email is glitching this morning, so I'm going to post this here. It has one day on it, and figured it might interest you: http://page18.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/w28955093 Still fairly priced, though agent fees for Japanese auctions can run about +20% now. Nearly as painful as an auction house. Its been a while since I purchased anything from the auctions, though still fun to look.