Curran

Given shape and what I can see of it, Shimada is not a bad call at all by Mr. Bowen. I tend to think of them when coming across late Muromachi o-tanto. There is a fair bit written on this school in English, though I have sold most of my publications that I recall having this info.. Someone else might have them and be able to further yes/no the Shimada call by consulting them. What little of their work I've seen in person, I have often liked.

With a bit of help and advice from Brian and Rich T., hopefully will post now the Katsumi works. (see acrobat file attachment) And here is the image of the Ito Masatoshi and Masasada work that got me interested in the Katsumi story. The signature for Ito Masatoshi doesn't match what I have in a few reference books, but he did have a very long life/career and only 2 or 3 reference signatures in my books. Tanaka school style work done in the Bushu Ito school. New to me, though maybe old hat to some of the veteran collectors here. Katsumi-Tsuba-examples.pdf

Ludolph and Eric, Thank you. The images of Katsumi work have been very helpful along with those sent to me offline. The Katsumi and Ito Masatoshi are good examples for me to get the frame of reference I needed. The Ito Masasada was different from Bushu Masasada (different Sada character) and was relatively unknown as be probably didn't become a student until the cusp of the Meiji era. I have been trying to post images of Katsumi tsuba provided to me via email, but am having trouble getting them from an Adobe Acorbat format to something of side I can display here. You two have been helpful in one of the limited chances I've had to study something new. I will try and post an image of the jointly signed Ito Masatoshi and Ito Masasada tsuba tomorrow. The Ito Masatoshi signature still isn't a match with any of the reference examples I've seen, but just doesn't seem to make sense as a gimei. Curran

Koshirae: looks like decent Higo fittings. Might be worth resorting a bit. (1) Can you provide a full length shot of the koshirae? (2) How much damage is there to the saya?

Bear with me, as lots of questions here: Those who have been here a time know that I am interested in Norisuke work, and I seem to enjoy as a side line of study those 19th century fittings artists that were skilled enough to both work in their own style and in making excellent copies or downright forgeries. I've been recently looking at a tsuba signed (Ito) Masatoshi . Nice write-up in Haynes, but doesn't mention the reference mei which are in Wakayama's 3vol set and Kinko Meikan for Ito Masatoshi. The tsuba being studied is also signed Masasada, which is supposedly a student of Ito Masatoshi. Request 1: Does anyone have a geneaology tree for Ito Katsumi -> Ito Masatoshi -> (Ito Masasada?) Request 2: Can anyone provide a reference signature for Ito Masatoshi or Ito Masasada outside of Wakayama and the Kinko Meikan? The tsuba up for sale is unpapered, but the Masatoshi signature doesn't look a close match at all. Yet it doesn't feel gimei, as workmanship is spot on and it isn't a big name. From experience with Norisuke, I am wondering if it is Masasada work with the Masatoshi mei also put on it? Masatoshi had a long life, so it may just be one end of his spectrum of signatures. My only concern with the whole Masasada student is that Masasada is supposed to have died c. 1850..... which would have been when his teacher Masatoshi was 5 years old.... Probably just another of the small errors or inconsistencies in Haynes' mostly superb Index. Request 3: I enjoyed reading about Ito Masatoshi's teacher Ito Katsumi and all the trouble he got into for his forgeries, his "I'm blind" years and subsequent recovery. He was supposedly extremely skilled. Has anyone an example of his work, or more information on his life? Thanks in advance. I'm surprised I haven't studied up on Ito Katsumi and his students before.

The before and after photo of the Nara Kaneiye seem to be a bit confusing the issue. Not what I would expect of a before/after. Keith keeps on hitting on that there isn't a unified idea upon how to clean. I think the idea some of us where trying to communicate is exactly that. You must find your own balance point. To quickly address some points: (1) bone has a different hardness than ivory. It is more useful in some instances. (2) oil can be useful in lifting some types of rust, but it is observed that people overdo it getting it all in the interior of the sukashi (3) bare naked untouched, oil, wax, etc- depends on your view. How many do you have? Do you care for them actively? How much are you focused on pure preservation, vs the way they would have looked in actual use and maintenance during their active life? I only own about 12 now. I have two kake for 3 tsuba each and rotate 6 on display and 6 in storage, so have a fair very light maintenance schedule for them. If I were able to own more, I'd probably take more of a pure long long term preservation stance.

For the most part, I must agree with Reinhard. Similar experience to his. Early days of my collecting, the first long sword I owned was Showa-to with this sort of kabuto fittings with some gold highlights. Was sold to me as late Edo... *sigh*. Saya was a paritcular black and red lacquer that I've since come to associate with post edo- and wrap was a golden mustard yellow. Brass tsuba of a shoami type sukashi design. No kozuka or kogai slots on most of them. Basically an all Showa rig on an okay if not bit hefty unsigned blade. Eventually got into Koto Bizen, and let the sword go off to someone else via ebay. Seen the particular kabuto design repeatedly, finished different ways. Mostly Showa period. ___________________________________ Ah-ha.... Just looked at the ebay link someone provided. That would be an example of the Showa fittings more like the ones on the sword I had. I know dealer says they are Edo. Showa.

If anyone is so generous, I'd like a copy of that list too. Ford, given that I am the resident lover of Norisuke work (I prefer some of his signed works to the originals), forgive me for wondering what you would do with such a list.... If I had the skill and resources, I would too. The thought puts a rare true smile on my face, so I give it a rare smiley :D . You remember the name of the fellow charged with being a Nazi collaberator because he sold them "famous art"? (edit:) Yes, I just discovered his name again: Van Meegeren. Known for his Vermeer works, I would swear it was an el Greco I had seen by him. No confusing the two artists.... must be too much white lead in my own paints finally getting to me.

That would be good news for the new owner? But would kobuse construction exclude oil quench? I don't own Slough's book, but wish I'd picked it up when I'd had the chance.

Hawley created an English index listing many many smiths with period, place of work, and how he think they signed. Most of his work was done in the 1960s and re-editioned through the 1980s. He used a relative point score for 'worth'. Yours has a point score of '15' according to Veli. I don't know which edition of Hawley's he was using. The scale was hardly scientific. The most famous names were given scores like 400 or 500, with a few most famous names of which 0 or 1 works are known to exist were given 750 or 1000. (Guys, don't kill me on this since I don't use Hawleys and am going from memory from the last time I cracked my 1st Ed 1966 version open). Between editions (1*), 2, 3, and 4 I think pointscores changed a bit. 15 isn't a 100, but it ain't a 5. Given it is Owari Shimosaka, probably 200 to 300 years old. I know more about Echizen Shimosaka. Good working blades. Sometimes nice tight grain if in full polish. Rarely do I see a grain opening flaw on them. Price/ Value ? I don't know. I focus mostly on fittings nowadays. Probably $800 to $2000 depending on condition, but you'd do much better to ask the guys here in the Nihonto section of the forum- though please understand there is *always* someone walking in asking "whats this worth", with no actual interest in the sword. Your relative brought back a decent one. Not a national treasure, but not a war time manufacture oil quenched machete. Curran

... Fujiwara Kanesada. Veli already translated it for you. And gave you a good bit of the basic reference on him. Kanesada is the smith's professional name and everything before that is honorific title- pretty standard. When he said the signature looks good, he meant that Nihonto often have false signatures or forgeries just like the painting world. Initial reaction is yours looks okay. He even linked you to one in Japan that is probably papered (authenticated by a respected Japanese Org.) as being correct. FYI. One of the big two or three sword shows each year is held in Tampa at the Tampa airport. If you remember next February, you should attend for a day. Otherwise, if you are down in Sarasota one day- bring the sword and we will give you a crash course in knowing what it is and caring for it. Curran Sarasota, FL

Tim, Thank you for the posts. Enjoyed the translation and the Haynes discussion of the Nara tsuba. I look at the photo (in its cleaned state) and see nothing particularly wrong with it as it is now. Tim wrote, "It takes practice and judgement to conserve a tsuba - I see it as being the equivalent of polishing a sword. However there is no formal apprentice system to teach people how."- I think this is what I hoped someone would say. With the subjectivity being so great on tsuba and no formal apprentice system, it is a learn as you go process. I think I started with Jim Gilbert's article a long time ago, experimented considerably on half a dozen ebay grade tsuba of different types, read a bunch of differing sources of opinion, talked to a few people who were and will almost certainly always remain ahead of me in their knowledge. I still think I learned the most from a single tsuba I think I mentioned earlier in this thread. An Edo tsuba of particularly good s-fold forging, I cautiously worked the ebb and flow of it with bone, ivory, cloth, etc for months in the pale but perfect restoration lighting of a Philadelphia fall and winter. In the end, I overdid it slightly. That Panzer tank hard tsuba with the beautiful grain just wouldn't heal as I tried years of slow methodical relatively natural inducements to undo the slight overshoot. ---It was like watching a glacier move. Read up, get the tools, practice on so many that you don't care about much before risking one you do care about. I totally destroyed a low end Choshu in my learning curve, but don't feel remotely bad about that relative to the Edo tsuba that I slightly overcleaned. Saved it from its rust pimpled state, but don't think it will be 100% proper presentable for quite a few years.

Reinhard, Thank you for taking the lead on this. I should have made more of an effort to realize it was a date that I was starting with. Morita-san, Thank you for explaining to us. I would not have been able to translate this. I will try and see if I can post a better image to see if the location name can be deciphered.

Steve, Not pro or con on the Sasano advice. Please don't forget Peter's perfect example in the context that it was questioned who cared for his tsuba later- before the second book was produced. Peter, Interesting example. The Sasano Hirata I passed on purchasing had this same sort of micro dotting that can be seen on the c.1994 tsuba you posted. Not on the earlier one. Strange and wonder what did this.

Do a pencil or traditional rubbing stencil of the nakago? Or hand drawing of the characters if they are highly legible? As someone who is photography handicapped, you have my sympathy. My complaint is my wife is a phenomenal photographer, but hates the digital camera. When the black magic of chem photography fell before the digital age, her cameras went into storage in our tansu. I'd rather herd 100 hyperactive kittens than try to get her to help with Nihonto photography. On that note, good luck.

If you are unsure of the reading of the signature, post a photo here. If sure of the reading, probably better to post this thread in the Nihonto specific section of the forum. Probably get more readers and comments there.

Charlie- Short of trying to carbon date it, nothing comes to mind. When I picked it up at auction, it was because I liked the simplicity and the deep patina of the wood. Lots of wear on it that has settled in without being damage. Seemed a bit older than the two late Edo tansu we have in the house, but I wasn't willing to go past 1825-1850 in dating it. Just told myself 1850ish. Signature wasn't shown or mentioned when I purchased it, and I'd forgotten about it. From my point of view; just curious to know what I can about it, enjoy it, and keep good care of it.

Reinhard, Thank you for this information. That date would make the kake older than I had estimated. I appreciate your help.

I've had this kake for quite some time. It is an old old one out of a light wood. I belatedly remembered it had writing on the bottom finishing with 'Saku kore" (the saku kore are cut off the bottom of photo, was too long for the scanner). Can anyone give me a decent read on it? it is a nice old kake, but the writing probably means "Property of Watanabe's Bathhouse, made by first son Watanabe". (just joking) Seriously.... Beyond my ability to read it. Anyone able to see it well enough, thank you in advance for a translation. Curran

Ford, Looks like a tough job for the folksy way I work on the the occasional tsuba. The moat around that tsuba would have taken me forever, and I confess to once giving up on a basketweave Bushu tsuba with a spray of rust on it. Keith- Ford or someone like Boris (Denizens of Vahalla, Boris is less frequent) will be quicker on the inorganic chemistry lesson. Cliff notes version: Magnetite is good. Rust is bad. Now go learn how to make magnetite

To be clear, I would never clean inside the sukashi as you would the rest of the tsuba. I do not believe the "never touch the inside of the sukashi". I do believe that *most people* should not. I think someone teaching communicated the idea that most people should not until they are comfortable with it such that they do no harm. Somewhere along the line it got simplified to "never touch the inside of the sukashi". As is, I am loathe to go inside the sukashi with anything other than a natural horse hair brush. Amazing what it can do and that which it might remove probably shouldn't be built up so loosely there. I can only think of one tsuba in the past decade where I made the judgement call to use a special thin tool fashioned from deer horn to go in to work areas inside the sukashi. I still have that tsuba and intend to keep it until I croak, so won't worry about disclosure until I am dead.

The Kaneiye Daruma tsuba has no red rust in other post year 2000 photography of it sent to me a few years ago. I doubt it did prior and suspect you are dealing more with photo quality in the three examples provided. Some felt Sasano overdid the cleaning on his tsuba. Not to the point of damage, but rather that they were just pristine and polished / brushed to a point at the edge of what others liked. I passed on one a few years ago after seeing it in hand and thinking it had been polished too porcelain clean for my liking. It is probably one of only 3 or 4 that I sincerely regret passing on in the last decade. My deep regrets to the former owner, who is on this list. Overcleaning is another issue. Do enough low level tsuba as hobby or learning experience and you will eventually decide/learn when you have gone too far. Definitely teaches you about a feel for iron. My 'too far' was an edo Tosho tsuba that I overdid a bit and spent the next few years trying to get the chemistry of patina to start naturally healing in. Feel a bit of guilt on that tsuba that it was a good one (not a great one) in that I took it from where it was to a healthy point, and then past that too much. With the exception of one extreme rescue tsuba that needed removal of considerable rust, I've never done it since. As for doing it within the sukashi. That is a harder lesson. But I agree. If you don't intervene on those with it in the sukashi... what you get is the Boston Museum collection..... Go and look at the iron ones in person some day. It saddened me to finally get to Boston. couldn't arrange a meet with Mr. Earle, so went with a college friend to the museum. A fair number of the beautiful tsuba are rusted through in the walls of the sukashi, though you wouldn't know from looking top down on the tsuba. Like a nice house where you lift up the siding and find the supports eatten through by termites. I regret to end it on that visual image. caring and cleaning for tsuba goes well beyond Jim Gilbert's article and there are 1 or 2 individuals who have accumulated decades of knowledge in it. But the ones I know don't "do the internet thing"... Curran

Like the idea, but find it hard to believe that water quench leaves a nice near ruler straight line of utsuri like that at an angle like that. Clay smeche. My mistake was not to read the sword was 'Ubu'. Still swear it looks shortened to me. Sigh. I'm going to go join Stephen and look at pretty younger swords with more leg and a much nicer pricetag.

Well f_ck it. It just seemed straight forward to me that it had been moved up about a finger / Japanese thumb width. I look at it again and I still see it moved up about that amount and the other evidence I associate with localized heating to move it up. Didn't bother looking at the papers until now. That makes it a mess. If Ubu, then anyone able to explain the "mizukage" or illustrate the other points of a retemper on this blade? I don't see them, so who can explain the "mizukage" (Just for reference: I don't think it is mizukage), or give an alternate understanding as to why this blade is the way it is?

Peter is right.... should read "heated copper block". As for cutting the cheese... pull my finger Mr. Miami. But yes it was mocha cheese cake for desert on the B-day. I don't celebrate my birthday much more than a nice meal, but can always dream some rich sexy sugar mamma will buy me nice nihonto. Thank you for the well wishes. This sword is what it is: old as dirt, excellent condition, and signed. Well beyond my budget. As Brian stressed, it is not saiha. At least not in my opinion.