Curran

Please give a lighter weight to what I say, as my sword kantei knowledge is not strong. I call myself a fittings collector that still occasionally wanders into the sword chat. As the others have said, it is hard to tell much about the sword. While decent photos, they don't or can't (due to state of polish) highlight some of the things that are helpful. Using non technical terms: Going from the shape of the sword, the even thickness up through the fore part of the blade... I would say Shinto or shinshinto. From what little I can see of the jigane and the rather pilar like formations in the hamon, plus some scattering of snowy nie inbetween- my first thought is that it is a mino school derivative from perhaps some time in the shinto period? Not my favorite area of study. Perhaps something more related to this: http://www.nihonto.us/UJIFUSA%20KATANA.htm Most of the Unifusa were of Mino origins. I am not saying it is Ujifusa school. My impression is that it is from a derivative Mino school like the Ujifusa school. Let me stress this is just my 2cents. I don't know what to make of the nakago (tang) shape and marks. That might point away from a Mino derivative school. Just trying to help a bit.

Lorenzo, The Kamiyoshi were ordered to take up the Hayashi tradition in the late 1700s. From photos, I think it is sometimes hard to distinguish their work from other Higo work. The one *quirk* many people remember about the school is that generations (2nd and 3rd?) did not sign their works, but rather marked them with distinct square (or rectangle) punch patterns (certain number up top and down below). It should be very easy to read up on them. Whenever a later Higo tsuba shows those punch mark patterns, it often gets called Kamiyoshi. There are many tsuba where the punch mark patterns are 'not right', and it is interesting that the NBTHK does not necessarily regard these as gimei- but doesn't paper them as Kamiyoshi. Good Kamiyoshi are desirable: http://www.nihonto.us/KAMIYOSHI%20RAKUJU%20TSUBA.htm It is not uncommon to see that something late Higo gets called "Kamiyoshi" if unpapered.

In the big horimono book there is a fair bit of discussion (beyond my reading skills) about the particular shape, depth, and detail of ken horimono and how to take that to work backwards with an attribution to certain smiths. This is the book's opinion- but I enjoyed the idea and found myself agreeing with it. Ray.... my spotty recall says to me that the sharp point ken which is deepest at the tip (and a few other things) is closer to the Oei Nobukuni guys, but the presence of ken horimono on both sides is something I don't recall in the Oei Nobukuni guys as much as I think I have seen it in maybe two or three 1st or 2nd generation works. From the horimono point of view, I can understand the Tanobe logic. I know my viewpoint is a bit ass-backwards to work from the 3rd (or 4th Gen) Oei Nobukuni- but it was what I got to see a number of at one point and made the deepest mental impression. I think the long since defunct Philadelphia group put out a decent publication on the Nobukuni group. I wish I had been able to see more 1st and 2nd Gen Nobukuni. Someone had a very beautiful Juyo (or T. Juyo????, I think just Juyo) as part of the San Francisco display in 2003. I would have liked to had a long study session with that blade, but it was not possible at the time. I've always wondered who owned it. Had things gone a bit differently the past few years, it is one I would have liked to track down and purchase. Alas, not meant to be.

Unique looking blade, even for Nobukuni school. My understanding is that usually the 3 brothers or smiths that signed Nobukuni starting around Oei are usually considered the 3rd generation, but one or two things I have read state that there was a very short lived "third" generation in there between the 2nd generation and the Oei period guys. Is the implication that it is 2nd generation, or too hard to tell but the work predates the Oei Nobukuni? I've seen now at least 2 times that the NTBHK can give pinpoint specific attributions on unsigned Oei Nobukuni blades: one was T.Hozon to one of the 3 guys, and the other was Juyo to one of the 3 Oei guys. Interesting that they could not give it to a generation. The Nobukuni were such early horimono experts. Ken were so common in their work, I'd think the ken original to the blade. Curran

Mike, Thank you for the interesting post. Attached is a modern I enjoyed owning for a while. It is a copy of a Tokubetsu Juyo Nobuiye. I value these gentlemen expressing themselves in new forms, but in my particular case just wanted to own a very well done copy of something where I doubt I will ever see the original. Curran

Heinjo tsuba adapted to gunto. (echo...) Some loss of inlay.

Worm trailed 2 gourds. Broken spiderwebs. I do not know to what this is an allusion. I usually think of the gourd (or golden gourds at least) as a symbol of victory. I can only hazard a guess of "old victories" or "victories past", but then maybe it is just 2 gourds forgotten in the cellar.... a seasonal theme. Could be late Higo, though also tempting to just say Shoami. Unfortunately, they don't whisper the answer late at night.

Rich, Thanks for posting an image of that tsuba. I thought to ask others to post for "1st period" Kamakura tsuba examples. I'm not sure I agree with the dating by Jim Gilbert of the first one on his site, but then I doubt he'd care a hill of beans. Just my feeling on the matter. Barry, Knee-jerk reflex is to look at the carving (clouds and general dragon) and point more towards shoami work. I know it is a sin to just say that and not back it up with better explanation. Armchair opinion is that it doesn't have the sukashi associated with later Kamakura bori and the design isn't so much as framed as the ones like Dave's where the elements look like they were lifted off Korean or Chinese celadon / porcerlain. Peter or Rich can probably state a better argument. Any pictures of the tsuba on the koshirae the way you received/found it? Curran

Everybody keep a cool head? I didn't like Kamakura tsuba that much when I started collecting, but have seen quite a number now from the "different periods" and say I have come across some nice ones here and there. I think the one I owned was rather simplistic and wonder how it would have looked on the koshirae of the time. ~Functionalist~ collectors always like that one, but a time came when I had to sell. Oh well. I've seen later koshirae with Kamakura tsuba closer to the one that started this thread. Sometimes they work quite nicely with the koshirae for an overall aesthetic. Curran

I have not seen too many what I would call "1st period" Kamakura. Here is an NBTHK papered one that I sold cheaply a while back. I believe it to be 1st period. Extremely dense and heavy. Felt like 1/4 inch of armor plate. Lacquered with the lacquer having worn off in places and either partially removed or not lacquered in the chrysanthemum petals. Curran

It is "Kamakura" style, which is a school of tsuba that used a sort of design related to Kamakura (wood engraving) style in their design work. The tsuba are therefore called 'Kamakura', but it is not from the Kamakura period. The school went through several revivals over the time (just like birkenstocks and other whatnot of fashion). Nice example, with papers. I believe there was one like this on Aoi Arts at one point. Hope that helps.

Dear Steve, I am afraid I cannot add to your excellent write-up. I enjoyed reading it and it contained about everything I know about Hogen. The prints illustrating the theme were perfect. I have seen a few pieces with his signature and never felt 100% confident on the signatures, leaving me to wonder how much variation his signature involved over his lifetime, or if they were all gimei. I hope someone else can comment on your kozuka.

The tsuba he uses as an avatar belonged to me a few years ago. I think it is the 3rd one in on the show. He purchased it from a dealer and posted it here to the NMB. I corresponded with him briefly, but don't know if he is still around. It was a nice slideshow w/ music. I found it calming during another hell day at work. Thank you. Sure, his collection is a little uneven compared to the advanced aesthetic of some here, but he has a few nice ones in there. The one that formerly belonged to me was an S folded piece with the forging visible and the extremely dense tsuba rang beautifully like a bell. The blossom inlay seemed a later addition. If circumstances were a bit different and I able to keep a larger collection, I wouldn't mind owning that one again. Nice to see an old friend.

Tomoe tsuba: First thoughts- I am mentally searching for the name of the artisan. Andy Quirt's website had a set of menuki by him. Early 20th century work. Often a little flat in appearance, but guy worked with copper and developed what to my eyes is a rather distinct earthen red patina. Probably one of the bigger brains like Ford or Peter Klein will come up with the name.... The menuki seem to have long sold from Andy's site. I suspect your tsuba might be more of his time/place of production. Early 20th century, and relatively sought after by some collectors. These are just my impressions. It kills me I cannot remember the artisan's name, and I don't know if I have him on file. Curran

I think it is a nice selection with aesthetic. I wish I could tell you more about the Tomoe tsuba. It is interesting to me. If you have more photos of it, throw them up.

FYI: Example page of Kunishige work http://www.choshuya.co.jp/tsuba/21_40/30namban.htm See the fuchi/kashira towards the end.

Without even going to the books, I was thinking almost exactly what Lorenzo said. The design reminded me of Hirado Kunishige work. Kuniyoshi a student? Curran

Tanto koshirae. The menuki were signed on the bottom(?) sides and mounted on the same. No wrap. As stated, they were gold with a fairly high profile (thickness) to them. Signature was clearly visible, though small. All the fittings were very good. The menuki were exceptionally good- perhaps "plush" is a better word; but I don't know if I have seen Mitsuoki menuki before. I had no reason to doubt the veracity of the package. Just curious when there are that many signatures.

Ted and Grey, Thanks for the replies. My reason for asking: The menuki were solid gold and signed Mitsuoki (the big guy of the Otsuki school) The fuchi and kojiri were also biggish names. I forget the other signatures. I was studying it at hand with no reference books to verify the signatures. Nice elegant but not overly flashy koshirae. With a pantheon of decent names on it, I wondered if papers where just that it was an original en-suite late edo koshirae or was _verifying_ all those signatures. If so, then the koshirae was worth a fair more than the nice healthy c. 1500 Mino blade. My memory isn't good enough to recall the details of the description on the papers, so I do not recall if it mentioned the Mitsuoki menuki at all. I confess I liked the whole package. I just wish I'd gotten the chance to verify some of the signatures for my own mental satisfaction and WoW!

Two years ago I was looking at a tanto koshirae I found beautiful and in a great state of preservation. It had Tokubetsu Hozon papers. All the pieces were signed, and nice lacquerwork. Question: If all the pieces are signed- the kozuka, kogai, fuchi, kashira, kojiri, etc- yes it was that sort of koshirae... do the papers authenticate all the signatures? If I knew the answer to this, I've forgotten! I'd appreciate help here from those more familiar with NBTHK papering practices. Curran

Chuck, Your questions are much bigger than I can begin to tackle. Higo is so large that call it an umbrella of schools. Books are written on the individual schools within it. Some of the sub-schools are extremely distinct, but something can be Higo without being particularly distinct as belonging to one of the individual schools. To borrow a phrase from a politician used years ago, after a while "(you) know it when you see it". Here is an example in another live thread at the moment: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5578&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15 You recognize the fuchi, kashira, kojiri pattern and iron. Red lacquer saya with a tapering shape to it.

Dear John and Chuck, My reply to Chuck was very quick. He was patient enough to ask his questions twice and had not gotten a response from our motley crue. I decided to step in and 'start the ball rolling' if it would roll. To answer John, I didn't think about it too much. Higo is very mainstream and I think many of us have seen many many variations of this gold vine paulownia fuchi/kashira. I just quickly looked and mentally dropped it where I thought it belonged timewise in the history of Higo and Edo Higo. The iron quality isn't great. It isn't bad. The pattern is applied with a rougher crosshatch, but the gold retention is relatively good and the overall look of the koshirae for a practicioner is quite fair. (gotta go... I'll edit this reply later and finish my train of thought) <<..later..>> I thought about this a bit and how best to explain for Chuck's viewpoint. An analogy might be acceptable: Higo fittings like Tiffany's or Stickley furniture is a long tradition. Much of the early work is very well done and very expensive to collect. The designs enjoyed great popularity and were copied (and mutated) a fair bit over the centuries. What started on one end of Japan and traveled to Edo during the "attendance / hostage program" of the shogunate, caught fad enough that artisans set up shop in Edo making Edo versions of the Higo items. For sake of the analogy- Tiffanys is Tiffanys. People want the early work much more than say the 1980s or 1990s produced stuff that was made more for mass market. Yet the 1980s and 1990s stuff is still quite popular and enjoys a fair bit of resale value. Hence, as Mantis Dude said, your Higo f/k/kojiri are probably going to go for more unassembled rather than as on your assembly. Someone is always trying to get a Higo assembly together. It will be pointed out it is not the earlier better stuff, but it still has a name and look that attracts buyers. Hope that helps.

Dear Chuck, Quick look and reply: Fuchi/Kashira/Kojiri are Higo school. Later period or possibly Edo Higo (Edo made version of Higo design). Fairly nice and sought after. Extra nice to have a kojiri with it. Yours have retained a good bit of the gold. The tsuba matches in design, but probably not school. It works fairly well, though some might want a Higo tsuba on it. "All matching" is more of a western train of thought than historical practice. I might have gone with gold paulownia theme menuki or something more along Higo school lines, but overall looks like it is nice assembly. Are those seppa from Fred?

Yes, I thought of that too. I have found Mr. Earle difficult to reach. Maybe Ed will have better luck. Anyone know if the Boston study group is still active? Ed, you may want to start a separate thread trying to get in touch with the Boston Group. Good luck.

Dear Ed, Nice reply. I am not sure how to concisely or even adequately answer your questions. I trust my opinion on some area. On others, I'd defer to Grey or some of the other veterans of the hobby. I've spent the better part of the last decade focusing increasingly on fittings. Sword knowledge is just so-so. My first though: yes, yes, yes .... leave the patina on tangs and fittings alone until you've been at it a long while. Especially on tangs. I wish Darcy were around to talk on that. He is a much better teacher than I am on that sort of topic. A cared for tang will have gone through controlled oxidation over centuries. Distinctly worlds different looking and feeling on an 800 year old blade than on a 100 year old blade, even if the blade is so out of polish or otherwise gone. Tangs can be doctored to look older than they are.... but that is entirely a different chapter on forensics. Question of sustaining a new polish- geez, that is a devil of a question even for the oldtimers. The construction of the blade can depend on age, school, and subschool. Hizen blades are notoriously thin skinned and even though maybe only 300 years old, be at serious risk of core coming through. On the other hand, some 700 year old Bizen blades seem to take polish after polish until the hamon is very thin. Much of this I think you are going to need talk with people in person. Even then, get 5 or more opinions and try and find your way through. You need to find if there is a Boston area club still active. Otherwise, you may want to try and get involved with the New York club. Most of my hands on knowledge comes from their lectures and years of attending the Tampa / San Fran shows. Post images. I can probably help with fittings. The swords are a bit more difficult to do through online images, and others here are probably going to be wiser than me about them. Curran