Curran

Peter, Al lives in Florida now? No friggin way! Your coast, my coast, or the panhandle? If over here, he's welcome to some cigars out of the humidor if he wants to drop by. An open show should be much better. I know the antique firearm aspect will bring some collectors down from the NE. I'll bring the great great uncle's Civil War Police Revolver for the gunnies.

Best post today. Thanks Sencho.

Don't know. Been in Florida for a number of years and a member, but either get nothing or 2 copies of various mailings. I thought it a stretch that Bardi could manage it from Hawaii, but hoped he could prove me wrong. Be a hero to me for that. So I hope you are wrong and someone educates us soon.

As Jean said, everyone please follow the name protocol. Some semblance of respect for Brian's invaluable NMB please... I followed this thread because it was a boring day and I had a few minutes... CPU Kill (Erik): When it comes to arkwork I don't much care about money, but it isn't my sword to decide its fate. If dude offered $10k.... get him on the phone right now and sell it. You can buy the owner several like swords for less. I reserve the word *dude* for special use and for when a friend is being a particular bonehead. Be happy to get $10k from *dude*. Even if he is a total asshat that karma wants to serve a lesson, some do-no-harm part of me would hesitate to let him be such a brain dead monkey as to buy it for $10k. Forgive me, but I must raise an eyebrow that dude even exists. Then again, I live in a place where I am reminded that such people do exist in great number. Blade looks very clean. Fittings are crap. Everyone has advised well. I don't think it would even garner $2500, but eBay is a weird thing and the nice temper activity might get some to bid it up.

Tarted up skin deep tsuba went for over $600 ?!

G- I do not believe I know the gentleman behind the website. Nor am I given to tilting at people and think I can count that I do so less than once a year. I do Don Quijote a windmill considerably more often. With patience and understanding for nihonto newbies, it was best to make humor out of it to jossle his common sense. If he has checked back with this post, he probably gets the idea. If the hypothetical fellow I met the other day truly believes he owns the Brooklyn Bridge, the result is still the same to me if I were to buy it from him. My comments were intended for Magic and I hope he has read your post if it wasn't perfectly clear to him. Not sure where Magic is posting from, but with the Yen through the roof and the US still being the tremendous post wartime repository for Japanese swords; short of jumping headlong into a Juyo pricepoint- he would do best to find an NBTHK or NTHK papered sword stateside/Canada. Relevant cost of papering a sword as a % of its value have risen so much such that it hardly makes sense to buy an unpapered sword unless he really knows what he is doing or gets extremely lucky.

magicx50, To save the moderator, please sign your name to the extent asked per the forum rules. The website: signed Masamune and a Muromasa on the same page. Be still my beating heart. Also a saya made in woodshop class. No papers anywhere. The irony is I think one of his attributions is correct. I met this guy the other day who offered to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge. He seemed sincere. He also claimed to own 84% of Facebook, but he had a cash emergency where he needed the exact amount I had in my wallet.

This would be one of the book sets I was thinking about. I think I purchased it for the Bizen section, but found other sections very informative. I recall the Shimada writeup being good.

Given shape and what I can see of it, Shimada is not a bad call at all by Mr. Bowen. I tend to think of them when coming across late Muromachi o-tanto. There is a fair bit written on this school in English, though I have sold most of my publications that I recall having this info.. Someone else might have them and be able to further yes/no the Shimada call by consulting them. What little of their work I've seen in person, I have often liked.

With a bit of help and advice from Brian and Rich T., hopefully will post now the Katsumi works. (see acrobat file attachment) And here is the image of the Ito Masatoshi and Masasada work that got me interested in the Katsumi story. The signature for Ito Masatoshi doesn't match what I have in a few reference books, but he did have a very long life/career and only 2 or 3 reference signatures in my books. Tanaka school style work done in the Bushu Ito school. New to me, though maybe old hat to some of the veteran collectors here. Katsumi-Tsuba-examples.pdf

Ludolph and Eric, Thank you. The images of Katsumi work have been very helpful along with those sent to me offline. The Katsumi and Ito Masatoshi are good examples for me to get the frame of reference I needed. The Ito Masasada was different from Bushu Masasada (different Sada character) and was relatively unknown as be probably didn't become a student until the cusp of the Meiji era. I have been trying to post images of Katsumi tsuba provided to me via email, but am having trouble getting them from an Adobe Acorbat format to something of side I can display here. You two have been helpful in one of the limited chances I've had to study something new. I will try and post an image of the jointly signed Ito Masatoshi and Ito Masasada tsuba tomorrow. The Ito Masatoshi signature still isn't a match with any of the reference examples I've seen, but just doesn't seem to make sense as a gimei. Curran

Koshirae: looks like decent Higo fittings. Might be worth resorting a bit. (1) Can you provide a full length shot of the koshirae? (2) How much damage is there to the saya?

Bear with me, as lots of questions here: Those who have been here a time know that I am interested in Norisuke work, and I seem to enjoy as a side line of study those 19th century fittings artists that were skilled enough to both work in their own style and in making excellent copies or downright forgeries. I've been recently looking at a tsuba signed (Ito) Masatoshi . Nice write-up in Haynes, but doesn't mention the reference mei which are in Wakayama's 3vol set and Kinko Meikan for Ito Masatoshi. The tsuba being studied is also signed Masasada, which is supposedly a student of Ito Masatoshi. Request 1: Does anyone have a geneaology tree for Ito Katsumi -> Ito Masatoshi -> (Ito Masasada?) Request 2: Can anyone provide a reference signature for Ito Masatoshi or Ito Masasada outside of Wakayama and the Kinko Meikan? The tsuba up for sale is unpapered, but the Masatoshi signature doesn't look a close match at all. Yet it doesn't feel gimei, as workmanship is spot on and it isn't a big name. From experience with Norisuke, I am wondering if it is Masasada work with the Masatoshi mei also put on it? Masatoshi had a long life, so it may just be one end of his spectrum of signatures. My only concern with the whole Masasada student is that Masasada is supposed to have died c. 1850..... which would have been when his teacher Masatoshi was 5 years old.... Probably just another of the small errors or inconsistencies in Haynes' mostly superb Index. Request 3: I enjoyed reading about Ito Masatoshi's teacher Ito Katsumi and all the trouble he got into for his forgeries, his "I'm blind" years and subsequent recovery. He was supposedly extremely skilled. Has anyone an example of his work, or more information on his life? Thanks in advance. I'm surprised I haven't studied up on Ito Katsumi and his students before.

The before and after photo of the Nara Kaneiye seem to be a bit confusing the issue. Not what I would expect of a before/after. Keith keeps on hitting on that there isn't a unified idea upon how to clean. I think the idea some of us where trying to communicate is exactly that. You must find your own balance point. To quickly address some points: (1) bone has a different hardness than ivory. It is more useful in some instances. (2) oil can be useful in lifting some types of rust, but it is observed that people overdo it getting it all in the interior of the sukashi (3) bare naked untouched, oil, wax, etc- depends on your view. How many do you have? Do you care for them actively? How much are you focused on pure preservation, vs the way they would have looked in actual use and maintenance during their active life? I only own about 12 now. I have two kake for 3 tsuba each and rotate 6 on display and 6 in storage, so have a fair very light maintenance schedule for them. If I were able to own more, I'd probably take more of a pure long long term preservation stance.

For the most part, I must agree with Reinhard. Similar experience to his. Early days of my collecting, the first long sword I owned was Showa-to with this sort of kabuto fittings with some gold highlights. Was sold to me as late Edo... *sigh*. Saya was a paritcular black and red lacquer that I've since come to associate with post edo- and wrap was a golden mustard yellow. Brass tsuba of a shoami type sukashi design. No kozuka or kogai slots on most of them. Basically an all Showa rig on an okay if not bit hefty unsigned blade. Eventually got into Koto Bizen, and let the sword go off to someone else via ebay. Seen the particular kabuto design repeatedly, finished different ways. Mostly Showa period. ___________________________________ Ah-ha.... Just looked at the ebay link someone provided. That would be an example of the Showa fittings more like the ones on the sword I had. I know dealer says they are Edo. Showa.

If anyone is so generous, I'd like a copy of that list too. Ford, given that I am the resident lover of Norisuke work (I prefer some of his signed works to the originals), forgive me for wondering what you would do with such a list.... If I had the skill and resources, I would too. The thought puts a rare true smile on my face, so I give it a rare smiley :D . You remember the name of the fellow charged with being a Nazi collaberator because he sold them "famous art"? (edit:) Yes, I just discovered his name again: Van Meegeren. Known for his Vermeer works, I would swear it was an el Greco I had seen by him. No confusing the two artists.... must be too much white lead in my own paints finally getting to me.

That would be good news for the new owner? But would kobuse construction exclude oil quench? I don't own Slough's book, but wish I'd picked it up when I'd had the chance.

Hawley created an English index listing many many smiths with period, place of work, and how he think they signed. Most of his work was done in the 1960s and re-editioned through the 1980s. He used a relative point score for 'worth'. Yours has a point score of '15' according to Veli. I don't know which edition of Hawley's he was using. The scale was hardly scientific. The most famous names were given scores like 400 or 500, with a few most famous names of which 0 or 1 works are known to exist were given 750 or 1000. (Guys, don't kill me on this since I don't use Hawleys and am going from memory from the last time I cracked my 1st Ed 1966 version open). Between editions (1*), 2, 3, and 4 I think pointscores changed a bit. 15 isn't a 100, but it ain't a 5. Given it is Owari Shimosaka, probably 200 to 300 years old. I know more about Echizen Shimosaka. Good working blades. Sometimes nice tight grain if in full polish. Rarely do I see a grain opening flaw on them. Price/ Value ? I don't know. I focus mostly on fittings nowadays. Probably $800 to $2000 depending on condition, but you'd do much better to ask the guys here in the Nihonto section of the forum- though please understand there is *always* someone walking in asking "whats this worth", with no actual interest in the sword. Your relative brought back a decent one. Not a national treasure, but not a war time manufacture oil quenched machete. Curran

... Fujiwara Kanesada. Veli already translated it for you. And gave you a good bit of the basic reference on him. Kanesada is the smith's professional name and everything before that is honorific title- pretty standard. When he said the signature looks good, he meant that Nihonto often have false signatures or forgeries just like the painting world. Initial reaction is yours looks okay. He even linked you to one in Japan that is probably papered (authenticated by a respected Japanese Org.) as being correct. FYI. One of the big two or three sword shows each year is held in Tampa at the Tampa airport. If you remember next February, you should attend for a day. Otherwise, if you are down in Sarasota one day- bring the sword and we will give you a crash course in knowing what it is and caring for it. Curran Sarasota, FL

Tim, Thank you for the posts. Enjoyed the translation and the Haynes discussion of the Nara tsuba. I look at the photo (in its cleaned state) and see nothing particularly wrong with it as it is now. Tim wrote, "It takes practice and judgement to conserve a tsuba - I see it as being the equivalent of polishing a sword. However there is no formal apprentice system to teach people how."- I think this is what I hoped someone would say. With the subjectivity being so great on tsuba and no formal apprentice system, it is a learn as you go process. I think I started with Jim Gilbert's article a long time ago, experimented considerably on half a dozen ebay grade tsuba of different types, read a bunch of differing sources of opinion, talked to a few people who were and will almost certainly always remain ahead of me in their knowledge. I still think I learned the most from a single tsuba I think I mentioned earlier in this thread. An Edo tsuba of particularly good s-fold forging, I cautiously worked the ebb and flow of it with bone, ivory, cloth, etc for months in the pale but perfect restoration lighting of a Philadelphia fall and winter. In the end, I overdid it slightly. That Panzer tank hard tsuba with the beautiful grain just wouldn't heal as I tried years of slow methodical relatively natural inducements to undo the slight overshoot. ---It was like watching a glacier move. Read up, get the tools, practice on so many that you don't care about much before risking one you do care about. I totally destroyed a low end Choshu in my learning curve, but don't feel remotely bad about that relative to the Edo tsuba that I slightly overcleaned. Saved it from its rust pimpled state, but don't think it will be 100% proper presentable for quite a few years.

Reinhard, Thank you for taking the lead on this. I should have made more of an effort to realize it was a date that I was starting with. Morita-san, Thank you for explaining to us. I would not have been able to translate this. I will try and see if I can post a better image to see if the location name can be deciphered.

Steve, Not pro or con on the Sasano advice. Please don't forget Peter's perfect example in the context that it was questioned who cared for his tsuba later- before the second book was produced. Peter, Interesting example. The Sasano Hirata I passed on purchasing had this same sort of micro dotting that can be seen on the c.1994 tsuba you posted. Not on the earlier one. Strange and wonder what did this.

Do a pencil or traditional rubbing stencil of the nakago? Or hand drawing of the characters if they are highly legible? As someone who is photography handicapped, you have my sympathy. My complaint is my wife is a phenomenal photographer, but hates the digital camera. When the black magic of chem photography fell before the digital age, her cameras went into storage in our tansu. I'd rather herd 100 hyperactive kittens than try to get her to help with Nihonto photography. On that note, good luck.

If you are unsure of the reading of the signature, post a photo here. If sure of the reading, probably better to post this thread in the Nihonto specific section of the forum. Probably get more readers and comments there.

Charlie- Short of trying to carbon date it, nothing comes to mind. When I picked it up at auction, it was because I liked the simplicity and the deep patina of the wood. Lots of wear on it that has settled in without being damage. Seemed a bit older than the two late Edo tansu we have in the house, but I wasn't willing to go past 1825-1850 in dating it. Just told myself 1850ish. Signature wasn't shown or mentioned when I purchased it, and I'd forgotten about it. From my point of view; just curious to know what I can about it, enjoy it, and keep good care of it.