Curran

Old Kappa, On my end, I do not know if the grapevine through Piers has been accurate. Glad you came in. If I would trust anyone's kodogu forensics on this board, it would be Ford's. I do disagree with him now and then, but Higo has rarely been my cup of tea. His knowledge of it most certainly exceeds mine. Other than Ford and Ito-san, there is one other on this board that I know can make a better judgement on this than me. I am not sure if Michael Cox is available at the moment, but he has quickly become a Higo encyclopedia and has hit me as being particularly good with Nishigaki. Ford: The nidai put the wavy line on this tsuba? My biggest tsuba purchase of the past year was a nidai Kanshiro . What surprised me most about it is how obsessive he was with a very very fine chisel. It made me go back through the Ito-san books and look at the nidai works over and over again. This is not to say that I've had many nidai works to study, and he certainly has worked with a variety of carving as some of his wave tsuba can illustrate..... but he seems to have had a bit of Obsessive disorder in that everything has to be just so. The wavy line just does not seem to me like something he would do. I am posting a koshirae project that has been going on for 9 years and hope is finished before a 10th passes by. It is meant as a display koshirae using a mix of mid to late Edo pieces including both Higo and Edo Higo that are relatively close and can go on a kake where I won't be angry if it gets stolen or damaged some day. All the components were chosen because I regard them as mid level work. All are papered by NTHK or NBTHK, except for the Jingo tsuba (5th Gen work). I believe it is relevant to the discussed tsuba. All the NTHK papered ones still have their original worksheets as to shinsa opinion on the age. It should make sense as to why I think mid-Edo Higo or Edo Higo. The 2nd to last photo is a variation using a 5th Gen Hayashi instead. When I see the paulownia tendrils, I tend to expect them to be this quality or better if mainline Nishigaki or Hayashi work.

John and Bob- thank you for adding in here. I am not sure why I am standing the line on this one, when it is generally easier to let things pass as bar talk. I would love it if Darcy were around to verbally dissect and diagram it, but the simple version is I think that the follow up with a third tsuba expert dating to the same borderline historically impossible time of a relatively well studied and documented school... is a bit much. Fill this e-library with such stuff, and we might as well burn it down. Clicking on the original length, has the owner moderated and edited his post since the discussion began? The dating is within tolerance at c. 17th century vs the claim and sticking to it of pre-1600. ------ I am serious about the bet. Offer stands.

Options: (1) Our three mystery tsuba experts are all wrong or not that expert (2) The owner reporting the 'three tsuba experts', is backing up his story with less that solid or true statments. (3) I am wrong and this is a pre-Edo pre-Higo treasure with homogeneous iron and style to be found primarily in Edo Higo works. Pick one. I know which one I'll bet heavily on. I'll put $1000 on the table here and have this guy run it through the Tampa shinsa for a time and date from Gilbert and the Japanese. Please remember and be forewarned I am a professional gambler for a living and very good at it.

Raymond to the rescue. I couldn't remember. Raymond, if the aforementioned collector with the nidai Norisuke ever puts it on the market- I'll try to remember to let you know. Tsuba was pretty awesome with the mantra spooling across it multiple times at different angles and wrapping around the mimi. On the backside was a poem in grass script that I could not translate.

Do you mean: (1) Microdear ? (2) Traditional paper ? #1 cleans with proper soap and water. Then water again.... Can be purchased at many photographyshops as appropriate for lenses.

I saw a set in Japan for auction, and they went for about $350-400. I was not sure if they were moderns, but thought they were youngish. Then I saw similar ones on ebay not long ago. I recently was loaned a nidai Norisuke tsuba which is one of the best two I've seen outside of the best of the best in the old books. It had the buddhist prayer of your menuki scrolling across it like a screen saver. Excellent tsuba that I doubt the owner will ever sell to me or anyone else unless he's wearing a toe tag. Gendai or not, I think em and would have bought them if I owned the matching tsuba. Owner of tsuba won't allow images of it, so you must be content knowing there is exists really good matching tsuba. I can confirm the tsuba is c. 1860s due to the name the nidai used in signing then. Hope that helps a bit. I am away for a while, so cannot recall and look up my notes on which Buddhist sect prayer it is. A very main one.... , yet my knowledge of Japanese Buddhism would barely fill a coffee cup.

Piers: yep. So "2 tsuba experts" saying basically that it is pre 1600? Value = false It is just a question of where it went false, but largely irrelevant for our needs. Dirk: Mia is a state of mine, er... state of mind. Er.... both actually. And also sometimes a very pretty woman. Alas and alack, I am married, thus that Mia will not be mine.

Right.... And when exactly did the Higo schools start? Anyhooooowwwww.......

Looks fun, and seems Cyrus recovered. It does sound like he is the SouthPark Kenny of the bunch, as every year there is an episode involving his near death to some degree. Was it last year he attempted to crack his skull by shivoling in wet expensive Italian shoes on a highly polished floor? Darcy always spoke highly of Kurokawa-san and I was surprised to realize from a business card in one of my Nihonto books that I met him by chance a long time ago as I started collecting. I was a near total newbie, but we were both admiring a koto bizen tanto with strong utsuri and got to talking for a few minutes. Irony is that my first Bizen also came from Kurokawa-san. Seeing Fred W. with a shoe tied to his head should be printed en-masse with the caption Fearless Leader and tapped to every table at the next SF show.

Wavy lie probably added later. I have no idea why!? Say what you want about this Edo Higo stuff, while the quality isn't top drawer- they didn't suck. Not my cup of tea, but is pretty in the opinion of most people not steeped in Nihonto education. The wavy line seems out of character for Edo-Higo work, which is usually professional and clean if not particularly highbrow. Sloppy wavy line was probably done later.

Not 16th century. More like 19th century Edo Higo? Tsuba came first. John S., on a different note I owe you a minor mia culpa in that you attributed a tsuba as Kaga Goto and I attributed it as Kyo Kanegushi. I am still not sure, but upon further looking it think that you may be right. I am overly quick to attribute particular stylization of dragon renderings with a certain shoami school and with kyo kanegushi work. Bad habit of mine, as I've seen a few examples of kaga Goto that render dragons that way. Mia culpa. Now back to regular fittings discussion.

Ah ha! Now I know where that coin one went! I didn't know you (Fred) owned it. I got an offer too good to refuse on my last Namban, and haven't owned one since I let it go... but wanted to jump at that coin one, and found it gone. Very unique one, and it is one of the 10 or so that have stuck in my mind. Nihonto and Numistatics rolled into one.

David, When you first posted it, I thought it likely they'd say Tempo. They see that hot stamping and it often gets called Tempo (Tenpo) as safer option. Unless they are really thin, I tend to skew them towards latest Muromachi or Momoyama. Again just my opinion: the Tempo seem to be slightly softer than the Myochin works, and the Saotome even harder more volcanic ore hard than the Myochin. Differing carbon content and whatnot aside, I've handled one or two Saotome that felt as hard as a diamond.

David, Very good congrats. I love the mushrooms, even be they not Porcini. I've followed this thread, but not had much to add. My thoughts have long been Myochin -> Saotome -> Tempo tsuba in terms of timeline. I believe the Myochin school made tsuba a bit earlier than Sasano or Torigoye say they did. With all the warring of the 1500s, why would they be limited to just armor? I've seen a few examples that have me begin their tsuba production more c. 1500. That is just my opinion, and one I hesitated to share here. I have this late Muromachi to Momoyama example of Sake Bottles (NBTHK Hozon to Myochin). Has a nice fitted box to it. A Japanese friend recently said the sukashi looks more like Mother and Child to her, and I kind of like seeing it that way. Of course, Sake Bottles works for me too. Wish I had a decent sake bottle in the house right now. Neither yours nor mine has been altered for a kozuka ana, and are difficult to find like that.

While I would say Kanayama seemed to bubble a bit in price a few years ago, I've always thought exceptional Namban to have been too easily dismissed as ~just Namban~. I would stress exceptional namban. Of course you will ask for clarification. I can only say those unique enough in design, workmanship, and condition where they were works of art unto themselves and only held back by classification as Namban. That is a bit of a circular argument, but I don't seen the chinese xeroxed Namban going up in value much other than being easy to appreciate by novice collectors for their complexity and gold. Then again, maybe Namban appreciation is spillover from the inflation of Chinese art assets, and western eyes seeing such things now.

Fittings: I haven't tried to check the signature on the fuchi. On the tsuba, I lean towards classification as Kyo-kanegushi. That is a demotion from Kaga Goto, as I don't find the work as precise in its repetition as I do Kaga Goto. However it is not a huge demotion, and it is a nice piece. It can probably be restored. That habaki is rather unique and a little artwork unto itself. Yes, the sword is probably toasted, but there are those here who would still be interested in it for reasons of study or restoration practice. You certainly aren't a troll, as you've quickly evidenced a good bit of knowledge how forums like this work and transferred a good bit of knowledge over. On some level, I wish the Nihonto bug bites you and you stay and learn a bit more. Don't clean those fittings with anything other than mild soap and a very mild brush. At this point, it is probably better to wait for others. Treat them as akin to jewelry.

Having been largely kidnapped by work the past 2.5 weeks, it is good to visit NMB more in depth this Friday night and find this thread still running. I was amused by the steak knives, as it reminds me of the set my parents have. Excellent knives. Just for the record, those menuki in your other thread are daikons. They are one of the few things we can actually grow in Florida soil, and have 1000 uses in Japanese and Korean cooking. Though shi-shi are often associated with peonies, I like the daikon menuki with them. It has the right playful happy vibe to the associations.

Yes, the fittings are decent. If there was a matching kashira with that fuchi, I'd buy them to go with a tsuba I have. The tsuba has a seppa dai crack and patina damage to the 'shakudo' (look that term up, think of it as gold-copper that pickles black when the mix is right). Don't rest metal on the tsuba. If in proper condition, in would be worth more than just pocket change. Hard to believe this was being considered to throw out as a souvenir item. Given the amount of junk we field here that guests assume is valuable, it is different to have someone come in with some okay stuff and think it is junk. By the way, that is gold. Not brass.

Kira, Each person has their own relative answer, and a forum of people can evidence concentrations in those answers. Don't treat it as a straight equation. I still keep two swords. One is clearly Art with a functional form, probably never intended to be used in combat. The other is decidedly function, with what I consider pleasing Art in its workmanship. It is also what feels most comfortable to what I would take into a theoretical sword fight, if I can't do the Indiana Jones and take a gun. There are some remarkable blades that are the best of both, but also are priced accordingly. Curran

After much ado, the package is back. Rich, it was sent to the private address of one of the dealers you use. Sent Express Mail Envelope. The correct harmonized tariff codes were used. The descriptions were correct. There were prior NBTHK papers inside, as well as a signed and dated letter inside stating to be submitted to the NBTHK museum for inspection and then returned to me. Package was opened and the papers inspected. No obvious "well there you go" flags. One customs official was kind enough to apologize and intervene, though it was not his office holding the package. Unfortunately, he was unable to get the Tokyo official in the other office to change his formal stance. Your mileage may vary. Someone else could send it the exact same way I did, and get through next time. Though I was warned by a Customs Official that Japan Post Service was now looking to refuse delivery of such items without "proper permits", my opinion is that I simply got an overzealous official that refused to allow delivery of the package. If anyone else has a similar experience to mine in the future, please let me (or NMB) know of it.

David's well written reply basically nails it dead center. The Myochin school is a long long long line, with some important offshoots like the Saotome school. Their work varied considerably through the ages, but one of the things they are most know for is the visible grain pattern- especially the mokume grain pattern tsubas. I happened to be reading up on the school today, looking for more information on the pre-Edo period of the school. There is not much in English that I am aware, and one reference claims they didn't make tsuba pre Edo. I don't hold with that, as the tsuba I was studying seems firmly late Muromachi and NBTHK papered to Myochin.

Kanemoto-den. Belatedly, I see Mr. Runagmc beat me to that answer. The shot of the ji-nie blowing off the backside of the hamon crest just above the habaki was a nice one.

As Moriyama-san said.

I am glad Bob said it: looks fake <-> modern to me Like a modern that has been poorly doctored to look older.

Note to the Yamabushi thread: That Baur Collection book they recently posted for sale is a difficult to impossible one to find. It took me a long time to score my copy and has proven useful in many ways. School charts, examples, reference mei, and tons of eye candy. I recommended it to a friend last Sunday at the NYC club meeting, so apologies if it is gone and Boris hasn't updated yet.