Curran

Not 16th century. More like 19th century Edo Higo? Tsuba came first. John S., on a different note I owe you a minor mia culpa in that you attributed a tsuba as Kaga Goto and I attributed it as Kyo Kanegushi. I am still not sure, but upon further looking it think that you may be right. I am overly quick to attribute particular stylization of dragon renderings with a certain shoami school and with kyo kanegushi work. Bad habit of mine, as I've seen a few examples of kaga Goto that render dragons that way. Mia culpa. Now back to regular fittings discussion.

Ah ha! Now I know where that coin one went! I didn't know you (Fred) owned it. I got an offer too good to refuse on my last Namban, and haven't owned one since I let it go... but wanted to jump at that coin one, and found it gone. Very unique one, and it is one of the 10 or so that have stuck in my mind. Nihonto and Numistatics rolled into one.

David, When you first posted it, I thought it likely they'd say Tempo. They see that hot stamping and it often gets called Tempo (Tenpo) as safer option. Unless they are really thin, I tend to skew them towards latest Muromachi or Momoyama. Again just my opinion: the Tempo seem to be slightly softer than the Myochin works, and the Saotome even harder more volcanic ore hard than the Myochin. Differing carbon content and whatnot aside, I've handled one or two Saotome that felt as hard as a diamond.

David, Very good congrats. I love the mushrooms, even be they not Porcini. I've followed this thread, but not had much to add. My thoughts have long been Myochin -> Saotome -> Tempo tsuba in terms of timeline. I believe the Myochin school made tsuba a bit earlier than Sasano or Torigoye say they did. With all the warring of the 1500s, why would they be limited to just armor? I've seen a few examples that have me begin their tsuba production more c. 1500. That is just my opinion, and one I hesitated to share here. I have this late Muromachi to Momoyama example of Sake Bottles (NBTHK Hozon to Myochin). Has a nice fitted box to it. A Japanese friend recently said the sukashi looks more like Mother and Child to her, and I kind of like seeing it that way. Of course, Sake Bottles works for me too. Wish I had a decent sake bottle in the house right now. Neither yours nor mine has been altered for a kozuka ana, and are difficult to find like that.

While I would say Kanayama seemed to bubble a bit in price a few years ago, I've always thought exceptional Namban to have been too easily dismissed as ~just Namban~. I would stress exceptional namban. Of course you will ask for clarification. I can only say those unique enough in design, workmanship, and condition where they were works of art unto themselves and only held back by classification as Namban. That is a bit of a circular argument, but I don't seen the chinese xeroxed Namban going up in value much other than being easy to appreciate by novice collectors for their complexity and gold. Then again, maybe Namban appreciation is spillover from the inflation of Chinese art assets, and western eyes seeing such things now.

Fittings: I haven't tried to check the signature on the fuchi. On the tsuba, I lean towards classification as Kyo-kanegushi. That is a demotion from Kaga Goto, as I don't find the work as precise in its repetition as I do Kaga Goto. However it is not a huge demotion, and it is a nice piece. It can probably be restored. That habaki is rather unique and a little artwork unto itself. Yes, the sword is probably toasted, but there are those here who would still be interested in it for reasons of study or restoration practice. You certainly aren't a troll, as you've quickly evidenced a good bit of knowledge how forums like this work and transferred a good bit of knowledge over. On some level, I wish the Nihonto bug bites you and you stay and learn a bit more. Don't clean those fittings with anything other than mild soap and a very mild brush. At this point, it is probably better to wait for others. Treat them as akin to jewelry.

Having been largely kidnapped by work the past 2.5 weeks, it is good to visit NMB more in depth this Friday night and find this thread still running. I was amused by the steak knives, as it reminds me of the set my parents have. Excellent knives. Just for the record, those menuki in your other thread are daikons. They are one of the few things we can actually grow in Florida soil, and have 1000 uses in Japanese and Korean cooking. Though shi-shi are often associated with peonies, I like the daikon menuki with them. It has the right playful happy vibe to the associations.

Yes, the fittings are decent. If there was a matching kashira with that fuchi, I'd buy them to go with a tsuba I have. The tsuba has a seppa dai crack and patina damage to the 'shakudo' (look that term up, think of it as gold-copper that pickles black when the mix is right). Don't rest metal on the tsuba. If in proper condition, in would be worth more than just pocket change. Hard to believe this was being considered to throw out as a souvenir item. Given the amount of junk we field here that guests assume is valuable, it is different to have someone come in with some okay stuff and think it is junk. By the way, that is gold. Not brass.

Kira, Each person has their own relative answer, and a forum of people can evidence concentrations in those answers. Don't treat it as a straight equation. I still keep two swords. One is clearly Art with a functional form, probably never intended to be used in combat. The other is decidedly function, with what I consider pleasing Art in its workmanship. It is also what feels most comfortable to what I would take into a theoretical sword fight, if I can't do the Indiana Jones and take a gun. There are some remarkable blades that are the best of both, but also are priced accordingly. Curran

After much ado, the package is back. Rich, it was sent to the private address of one of the dealers you use. Sent Express Mail Envelope. The correct harmonized tariff codes were used. The descriptions were correct. There were prior NBTHK papers inside, as well as a signed and dated letter inside stating to be submitted to the NBTHK museum for inspection and then returned to me. Package was opened and the papers inspected. No obvious "well there you go" flags. One customs official was kind enough to apologize and intervene, though it was not his office holding the package. Unfortunately, he was unable to get the Tokyo official in the other office to change his formal stance. Your mileage may vary. Someone else could send it the exact same way I did, and get through next time. Though I was warned by a Customs Official that Japan Post Service was now looking to refuse delivery of such items without "proper permits", my opinion is that I simply got an overzealous official that refused to allow delivery of the package. If anyone else has a similar experience to mine in the future, please let me (or NMB) know of it.

David's well written reply basically nails it dead center. The Myochin school is a long long long line, with some important offshoots like the Saotome school. Their work varied considerably through the ages, but one of the things they are most know for is the visible grain pattern- especially the mokume grain pattern tsubas. I happened to be reading up on the school today, looking for more information on the pre-Edo period of the school. There is not much in English that I am aware, and one reference claims they didn't make tsuba pre Edo. I don't hold with that, as the tsuba I was studying seems firmly late Muromachi and NBTHK papered to Myochin.

Kanemoto-den. Belatedly, I see Mr. Runagmc beat me to that answer. The shot of the ji-nie blowing off the backside of the hamon crest just above the habaki was a nice one.

As Moriyama-san said.

I am glad Bob said it: looks fake <-> modern to me Like a modern that has been poorly doctored to look older.

Note to the Yamabushi thread: That Baur Collection book they recently posted for sale is a difficult to impossible one to find. It took me a long time to score my copy and has proven useful in many ways. School charts, examples, reference mei, and tons of eye candy. I recommended it to a friend last Sunday at the NYC club meeting, so apologies if it is gone and Boris hasn't updated yet.

That would be the one. Rather than its old green Tokubetsu Kicho papers, I decided to see if the current NBTHK could specifically attribute it to Hayashi Matahei (punch mark pattern is his). It is better iron and more elegant than some of his works, and it would be interesting if they gave it to anyone else.

Mike, USPS: Yes Express Mail: Yes Returned Goods: Yes Only mistake I made was insuring and declaring for $5000. I filled out the long customs form with Japanese Antiques.... Harmonized Tariff Code 9706.00.00.60 I've been through this with Darcy, Benson, Christies, and other places enough that I know what I am doing. If anything, I was particularly honest this time with a note on the customs form saying "To NBTHK Museum and then to be returned". Practically the cleanest package I ever sent, so naturally I get what Chris calls the anomoly. It still is an anomoly, and Chris is right in that probably it will need be refused and returned to me. Others have been kind enough to say my kantei skills don't suck.... but for these pieces (2 with old green papers), it didn't require much effort: (1) Kaga Goto Set (Each with 3 Maeda mon on them) (2) 11cm O-Katchushi - ~Ubu (3) A very nice "Miyamoto Musashi Namako" Hayashi with goldwork So if you see any of these floating in Japan for sale... please let me know. Curran

Actually, the amount is 8000 yen for one set of documents to start.... Then presumably more elsewhere.

Peter, Thank you for your kind words. My work is very high stress work, so I try not to let hobby like this bother me. But it does feel quite the stone in my shoe. There is a very sympathetic Customs agent trying to help, yet the problems seem to be more with Japan Post right now. There is a chance my items might not be returned, even though they have NBTHK paper with them documenting they are antiques.... not weapons. Yes.... they are claiming the little shakudo menuki and kozuka (no blade) are weapons. Of course, it is explained to me money and several months of time might make it admitted so they can go to shinsa. Basically, I must pay about 50% of their worth. ___________________________________________________ I recently felt I wasted a bunch of time with an American visitor wanting to have us drool big wads of cash over his out of the closet sword. Now I feel I'm phfissing into the wind with the Japanese. Makes me tired. I'm not sure of the intent of Peter Klein's movie reference, but maybe I should watch it again and redirect energy towards building children's playgrounds (film reference) Anyway... this pretty much cans any chance of me sending things to Juyo shinsa next year.

To be clear, and in conjunction with Chris' statement... Yes, why bother submitting fittings for papers if value is $1000 or less?? In the $1000 to $2000 range it is up for debate, and makes more sense on signed items. The items I am submitting are each in the $2000 to $3000 range, and even then it was more whim than logic.

Of course he would be prejudiced there, But at this point even I'm d*mn tired of the NBTHK papering. After having been trading email with Japan Customs and various concerned Japanese individuals, even though they recognize the NBTHK papers and the items are antique, they are insisting upon tariff for the value above 200,000 yen. They are also intending to hold the items past the shinsa deadline while they sort out the paperwork that was already filled out properly. I have no guarantee the items weren't damaged during their handling (kodogu set is pristine shakudo), and they are being obstinate about just returning them to me. I regret to say: caution to those sending your items to Japan. Even just fittings.

With the Tokubetsu Kicho papers discount and sending several items together through a friendly agent, it wasn't going to be too much more $$$ than NTHK shinsa for fittings. Plus, I hadn't sent anything to the NBTHK in many years. It was almost just a weekend whim. Now I regret it. -------------------------------------------------------- Probably NTHK next time, if it should be papered.

Chris, Thank you. I'm working with a major Japanese dealer, and he is frustrated. I will correspond with him again. Unfortunately the deadline is this weekend. Yen rate being what it is, the Japan customs being as screwy as they've gotten, and the NBTHK Hozon fittings papers being a bit questionable recently.... I wonder why I bother. If I must have them papered, then waiting till the next time I attend an NTHK shinsa would be better. Good luck with your upcoming shinsa.

In submitting 2 tsuba and a fittings set to the NBTHK for shinsa, the Tokyo Customs House has seized them and declared them part of weapons despite their antique nature. Even if recognized as antiques, Tokyo Customs wants tariff on the value above 200,000 yen. The tsuba have old NBTHK papers with them in the package documenting them. They also have been fully declared with harmonized tariff code 9706.00.00.60 Tokyo Customs does not seem to care, and the dealer in Tokyo that I am using is trying to talk some logic into them. Others in NY have voiced to me that they hesitate to send anything to the NBTHK now, for various reasons. I politely listened, but didn't their concerns applied to fittings. Anyone think it would be wise to get the NBTHK involved? If so, how would I do so and to whom would I write? Sincerely in a bit of shock at Japan Customs, Curran

This was an exceptional waste of time. I think Ken summed it up. I spent several hours on Sunday at the NYC meeting with opportunity to study several Juyo Bizen works from the Kamakura and Nambokchu period. I cannot believe I wasted near equal amount of time trying to advise on this fly-by-night visitor's sword. It was just nice to see a koto Bizen sword out of the woodwork that was still in polish. Good luck with Mr. Strauch. Travel well. Iterasai and Mar sin leibh.