Curran

It is my opinion that Fred's is a nice Muromachi example. Its size and condition make desirable, though price on these seems to have come down a good bit in recent years. There are others slightly smaller available around the 2.5k to 3k mark in Japan- not selling. Still- size and condition are extremely important. Someone with deep pockets will probably buy this one. There is only 1 that I can think of which would tempt me more, and it is still 'not for sale'. Missed my window of opportunity long ago when it was briefly offered up. As David said, NBTHK has recently been pushing back the giving of Ko-tosho and Ko-katchushi to mid Muromachi. It is a bit confusing, as recently papered "Tosho" and "Katchushi" are sometimes older examples than others with NBTHK papers saying 'Ko-tosho' or 'ko-katchushi'. Ultimately: use your best judgement

Daebak! (ask your wife for translation) That is one robust looking examples. So many of the ones I've seen have been polished down quite a lot to bring out the hada. This one looks elegant, and I wouldn't have a new polish put on it unless something wrong with it. I now understand both the nie and ko-bizen comment. I didn't think it a Tanobe-san sayagaki at first. It looked like his writing with that right hand flair out on certain strokes, but he used a finer brush and wrote so much in a tighter style that I thought it must be someone else with excellent writing style. I hope this one gets displayed at Tampa. Just wow..... I run counter to many in not loving Soshu so much, but this one is smoking beautiful.

Kunitaro-san, thank you for that translation. I plucked out the kin-zogan, Mitsu-tada, and a bit of the rest, but could not have worked out that second sentence. Ray, Yes, I saw from the photo that it was a Norishige and was trying to figure out why the ko-bizen line. This must be a really nice one. Since I've lead the hurricanes away from Florida to New York for 2 years running now (and spared Miami), please humor your fellow Floridian and post at least a partial picture of this blade. Any section of the nice jigane will do, but given the description of shape.... I hope you will post the whole thing. If you don't make it to Tampa, I may need make a trip to Miami.

Wow. Quite a bit there, and more than half of it beyond my ability to read. Nice "Ko-Bizen" and "Especially Precious". If one of the Japanese gents don't help, you might run it against Darcy's guide on such works. You should be able to translate it fairly fast. Harry, Markus, or George Trotter might bang it out too. I'll be curious to read this one when someone responds. That isn't Tanobe-san's handwriting. Whose writing is it?

The Kunisada was mentioned by me in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14101 Geraint and Adam L responded, with Adam showing another sword with the strange extension as on Ed's. I'd seen a few like Ed's listed before where an extension was lapped on and pinned, but never seen one where it was extended with a hollow sleeve extender like on the Kunisada. For the record, I really liked that Kunisada as one of my favorites of the auction. Didn't think I would, but once out of the saya- the sword had lot of personality and the polish was good. However, the extension on the Kunisada wasn't nearly as pleasant as the rest of the blade. The patina was painfully different. It isn't apparent so much in the black and white photos.

Peter, Thank you. The blade is a more polished down than I would have expected, but that sort of full bodied ken horimono is something I have not see often. The signature is very clean and great to study. Hope everyone has themselves a blast at the DTI this year.

Hmm. Anyone able to post a picture of the Nobukuni or the Muramasa?

Peter, Thank you for posting this. I'd purchased catalogs from previous years, but not this year. It does seem there are more top quality items this year. I was curious to see the Juyo Nobukuni tanto (#181) and Juyo Muramasa tanto (#180). I went to the owner-presenter's website and see nothing of that calibre. Are the items listed all for sale, or are many just for show? ___________________________________________________________ Shodai through Oei Nobukuni are tanto are blades I always want to see, though often the katana are less interesting. Yet there was an incredible TOkubetsu Juyo Nobukuni in the USA about 10 years ago. I wish I could see that one again.

Nidai Jingo ala~ 3rd Gen Shimizu. That +1 shift. Many of us here just refer to it as Shimizu gen 2 thru 5 = Jingo 2 thru 5. Bad habit of ours. Should be Shimizu 2 thru 5 = Jingo 1 thru 4. Ron's is probably late Jingo 1 or early Jingo 2. * Note also variation in Japanese writing Jingo between Jingo 1 & 2. Maybe Mike or Michael can illustrate that. Mike's tsuba design seems really popular with Nidai Jingo (3rd Shimizu). This is the 4th example of this one I have seen. Anyone able to explain why Ito-san called this "thunder" or "thunder chain". I don't have his book in front of me, but have always wondered about the origin on that description.

David, What I was getting at is that when we hear Yushu or Juyo, we reflexively think NTHK or NBTHK level rank. If it had been an old Yushu issued by the NTHK, that would have been *much* more interesting. We don't see many Yushu NTHK papers outside of Japan these days. We see high level & low level juyo, with many of the mumei lower level Juyo of the 1970s, 80s, and 90s starting to flood the market a bit. I do not recall seeing 'low level mumei' Yushu. This is not to say they don't exist. As an aside: I don't think I've ever seen a Yushu NTHK fittings paper. That too would be interesting.

I should point out that the Yushu papers on the Muramasa were not from the NTHK. Yushu papers from some lesser or unknown 3rd party don't carry much weight.

The Muramasa: Not an area where I know much. There have been some good threads on NMB in this area. The sword itself was a very nice elegant thing. If mumei, it would have caught my attention. Something about the nakago condition patina or feel said that it was not original, but maybe it was done long ago. The only thing I noted the second time I observed it was an odd scuff and distortion on the edge about 8 to 10 inches from the kissaki. My thoughts were someone couldn't resist to use it to cut something, and did so poorly. One poor cut... bamm, there goes a % of the value. All this said, I still couldn't believe it didn't receive more bids. If the Naotsuna was the high end WTF, then the Muramasa was contender for the low end WTF.

Yasumitsu tachi can be signed both sides. In this thread there are links to (or) pictures of Juyo Yasumitsu tachi signed both sides. Long signature tends to be tachi side.

Adam, I believe I remember that Yasumitsu. It was in Ginza-Choshuya magazine late 2007 or early 2008. I didn't have the money free for it, but I tried to buy it the second I saw it. However, Choshuya said it was already sold. Price was very fair. I thought it a bargain for such a Yasumitsu. In modern 'austerity', I cannot afford a Yasumitsu or Morimitsu tachi. Therefore I look for maybe an exceptional wakizashi by Yasumitsu, Morimitsu, or Iesuke. Yes, the horimono on that Yasumitsu wakizashi was outstanding.... but that wak was also priced about $50,000 when the USD was much stronger. Special wak. Yasumitsu often have horimono, but not as much as Oei Nobukuni. Still, Oei period seems popular for certain types of horimono. Here is another Yasumitsu tachi (w/ horimono) to envy: http://katananokura.jp/SHOP/1208-K02.html

Sam, Please come to the New York Nihonto Club meeting. I believe it will be on October 28th at 12noon in the usual meeting place in Times Square. PM me for further details or visit the website: http://www.ny-tokenkai.org/ny-tokenkai. ... n_Kai.html

This one has a little more kaeri: http://katananokura.jp/SHOP/1206-W05.html Yes, Yasumitsu is the best. Good tachi by him are rare and expensive. However, I think some Iesuke works surpass that of Morimitsu. I have seen an Iesuke naginata that was on par with the best Yasumitsu work. I have always liked Jean's elegant Yasumitsu. Just for fun, I have uploaded some pictures of other nice Yasumitsu that I have in my records.

I gladly defer to Michael. He and Les are the best Jingo collectors in the west that I know. Ron, after your last post I looked at the books and some files I've been building over the years. I associated the outer chain pattern with 3rd gen or later, though i've mostly seen it in silver or silver inlay. Between that and the thinness, I intially thought 3rd Gen. Then seeing your second image, I wondered if it is late second gen. Michael, any insight on ways to distinquish between 2nd and 3rd gen?

David, Heavy phone / on-line action on that one. I looked at it at least twice. Another experienced person thought it real. I reserved judgement, because I think it got the "shake-n-bake" from someone in the last 20 to 30 years since the papers were issued. Some signs of what I take to be the work of heavy handed repatination. Other than that, it felt fairly right. But my feeling is someone gave it their super secret barbecue sauce. I know one west coaster who has often done that to papered tsuba and worked hard to recognize his influence. I thought I saw it bigtime there. That sort of killed it for me.

Was there today. Most interesting sale.... Bottom line: -----Armor strong , but often seems to do well at auctions. -----Fittings strong , wow. I thought the estimates were nosebleed high, but many went near estimates. Most of the gimei went for less than estimate. -----Swords weak , had I known the reserves were so low- I think I would have gotten the Juyo I was after. Jean, one or two big buyers in the room. But mostly online and phone bids. Some phone wars over fittings and a sword that I liked. I have no idea why the Naotsuna went for that much. Really didn't do much for me, and I thought the estimate was a typo. It was #1136, the Shikkake that I was hoping wouldn't sell. I was very caught off guard when they started the bidding so low and couldn't mentally process that such a beautiful blade went for so little. It didn't look like much in the photos, but was D-IF GIA certified diamond in person. Still a little stunned.... I last minute decided to bid on a tsuba that I liked. So I did that one in person. Bid, got outbid, and trader's reflex is not to bid again.... but I really should have. Fine tsuba by a lesser known at a fair price. Biting my lip on that one. Photo in the catalog didn't do it justice. ----->> Much of the bidding seemed logical to me, but there were maybe a half dozen "WTFs". Again, the Naotsuna was one of them. The Shikkake was also a WTF on the lows side. Bonhams people really did a good job for the most part, as this was a complex sale with a lot of information disclosed on many of the items.

Dr. Dorfman would be my favorite person in the USA to discuss Shimizu/Jingo. You are correct on slanted "water drop holes". I've attached an image that shows this. I have seen examples where this wasn't true, but it might have been for other design reasons. The straight through ones were all late 3rd or early 4th gen work. As to rarity and studying them in person, yes Jingo are the ones that seem hardest to photograph and its only in hand / in person that the whole thing hits you. Often I find paintings (such as Klimt's) are more pleasant in images or photos than real life. Jingo tsuba are the exact opposite. You've got to see them in person. ~~~~~Though one NYC area collector has a fine first gen f/k to study, I just haven't gotten to see enough of the 1st and 2nd gen to feel confident attributing them. A friend has a 1st gen and a 3rd gen that is nearly an identical copy. He explains the differences in quality of the silver zogan and other things so minute that you must see them to understand. I don't understand yet, and may take a little international sabbatical next spring to get a better crash course into Higo works. Thanks for posting that second image. I'm a little surprised the silver is as bright as that. It often oxidizes heavily on the Jingo. I will forward a link. It may take a week or so before he replies.

I too wish I knew. I find auctions impossible to gauge. I've seen auctions of ma-ma stuff go for multiples of current fair value. Other auctions where excellent stuff went for very little. In particular was a Tokubetsu Juyo student of Masamune sword in pristine polish and condition that went for $50-$60K. I'm hoping this auction goes well, as the Bonhams people have done a good job for the most part. Given that I work in finance, I get doused in buckets of the economist and trader's international gloom-n-doom. You'd think it was global extinction around the corner. It remains pretty thick at present, so I don't know if international buyers will show up unless seeking hard assets to protect against governments turning on the printing presses to pay their old debts.

You are correct about the little kaeri.

At Bonhams was a nice sword with NTHK papers. Decent sayagaki. Straight as a kendo shinai. with nice jigane, and a cutting test..... but something very unusual about it. See image and zoom in on the end of the nakago: http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20503/lot/1172/ Keep zooming until you can see it well. The last few inches of the nakago are a hollow secondary nakago somehow cut and screw-bolted (yes, looks like a screw) onto some sort of flange from the original nakago. It is relatively stable and the NTHK papers show it this way. As I said, the extention is hollow, like a small iron saya handle. _________________________________________________________ Blade was very nice except for this. I'd never seen something like it before and thought it rather Frankenstein. Must have made for a very long tsuka. Any of our sword swingers able to explain why this was done (just to make it uber long??). Patina doesn't match the excellent patina on the original nakago. Yet cutting it off would require repatination of the end of the original nakago, and I assume it would need be re-submitted for NTHK papers. Or would the NTHK honor the previous papers and simply charge a fee to re-issue papers with the restored nakago?

I remember this from ebay. Didn't think the hada that far off from Oei Bizen that I have seen. Did not look too long, once I decided the signature was not correct. There is a papered one on Nihonto.com that you can use for comparison. The one on Nihonto.com has also seen a lot of polishes, so the kissaki geometry has something to tell you.

Best people to ask are in England or Japan. I'll point one of them at it, but he may be slow to respond. I'm confident with 3rd, 4th, 5th gen and some of the students.... but don't feel knowledgeable enough to comment with conviction on earlier pieces. Please post a photo of the other side, if you have one.