Curran

Don't trust the Boston MFA attributions or veracity of the signatures on the ones they have read. Good museum. Excellent collection. Yet could stand some volunteer work to help the cataloging. I don't think Ogawa-san can be pressed into going through all them, and don't think anyone else there wants to admit they aren't experts in this small yet very deep field of study. Some of the iron tsuba are rusting away severely from inside the sukashi. Don't know why. Can only guess that they were treated improperly at one point and the process unhalted is eating out the walls. At least the kinko ones will survive.

Thank you Toryu (Big T). Anyone able to find him in Haynes?

That is part of why I asked. Even museums know better than to deface these things with a permanent mark. Yet is seemed very museum catalog-like and still patina looks fine. I thought I'd never seen something like this before, but your german comment helped me remembered one of the kozuka in the 100 Kozuka book has the coat of arms of the western owner tastefully etched into the backside. The '24' is something different. I don't have access to my books to translate the signature, but if John cannot do it ~ I doubt I could either.

Tsuba, An Aesthetic Study", by Kazutaro Torigoye and Robert Haynes, from the "Tsuba Geijutsu-Ko" of Kazutaro Torigoye, 300 pages. from here: http://www.ncjsc.org/ncjsc_publications.htm $25 Go to Lulu.co and search on "Sesko" See: http://www.lulu.com/shop/markus-sesko/t ... 23849.html Also: http://www.lulu.com/shop/markus-sesko/k ... 66848.html Between either e-reader or waiting until Lulu sends you a discount code, you can get the three books for less than $100 total. Mind you, the books don't have very good illustrations- but as you read you can query on the Internet and look for examples. These 3 books should keep you busy for a year or two.

Without translating the signature, a tsuba related to or within the Mito school. Is the tsuba really stamped or etched "24" on the front underneath the nakago ana?

Post the pictures for Fred Geyer. This is his sweet spot and a school I like. I'd follow his advice on Owari Shinto.

Mark and David, Thank you. This gets more interesting, and bringing the design to life. Both David's information on the punch marks, and Marks botanical information helped me understand a bit better. Mark, is the tsuba you shared currently owned in Europe? I remember two or three of this design in the Higo Kinko Taikan. I have studied one I assumed to be 5th gen. Another collector said it was 3rd gen, possibly even late 2nd gen. I chose to stick with my 5th gen opinion, but this thread is opening me more to the idea that it is 3rd gen. --------- I was surprised they were described as inedible. The part about them retaining flavor far into winter makes sense. That is when I remember we would eat them in northern italy- with white cheese and espresso out of a lunch pail. Standard 10:15 break during construction or repairs in cold weather.

Bottom one is "Mushrooms". (food) No idea on the top one.

Peter K: 20 years = yes 50 years = no , not really Variables are numerous. There will always be an interest in fine weapons. Major variables: Japan economy and demographics. Most economies see a middle class only in their high growth years. Then tend to settle more into haves and have nots. That bulge is also represented in the appreciation and understanding of mid level artwork. Then tends to separate like water & oil into the buyers and owners of the very best and the growing number of buyers of the more base. The middle starves through attrition. 2 generations of downside is pretty hard, unless some sort or renewal or revival event. Don't know if Japan will get that, with their demographics. Tokubetsu Juyo or true museum display grade WoW! works holding or inflating in price and WW2 swords raising in price. Everything else softening. Other variables are what it costs to produce and equivalent piece of artwork today. Gold and shakudo Yoshioka sets climbing in demand and even value, often off to China and Russia.

Higo Kinko Taikan anyone? Mine is in storage for the winter. I'm more curious about the old Tachibana design, as I see it in Edo fittings and armor fairly often. It is more allusion, or did it have a more concrete meaning or association during the Edo period?

See this design as a family insignia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachibana_clan_%28kuge%29 I see variations of this design on fittings, but not knowledgeable about the Japanese families. Example: http://page9.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k150677999

It would seem the shoe lace from my old gym sneakers has been reborn as the ito on his sword.

So Jimmy Hoffa ain't dead?

El Lotte- yo tampoco.... ahora = $450,000,000.00 or 5.5 billion pesos.

Unno Moritoshi menuki

Jean, You would be correct. However, in the instance I am thinking: it was the tsuba that indicated specific rank. Ie. I'm a 5 star general, you are a 3 star, and he is a 1 star general. When you discuss the pre-edo fittings where it is not about the tsuba, but the other items- there I still have much to learn. Seen the images, text, and diagrams in the books discussing such stuff, but not gotten myself and translator to that end of the rather big pool. I don't know what is written in English and where. I just know the answer to, "did tsuba *ever* indicate rank" = yes. (at least in some pre-Edo instances)

I haven't read Skip's article. Some pre-Edo tsuba clearly indicate rank. Clearly.... I thought it was public domain knowledge. Nope- can't evidence it at the moment. Only know of a few examples in the west. Would need to have two or three images along with period koshirae to illustrate, and I know it is verboten to use the images shared with me. Even then, I'd have doubters until I got an NBTHK letter to back it up (love how they still do the whole red-white-blue airmail hand written thing). I think I can illustrate it with some in the Tokyo Museum book or with books I have, but not sure. Thanks to Storm Sandy, my wall o' books are stored up north for the winter. Sorry guys, but you asked an interesting question at an awkward time. If I didn't know better, I'd say this thread was set up to jerk around some of us having a private correspondence not too far back. That is as far as I can go into it now.

Especially good condition iron higo f/k. One restorer realized this early and bought up whatever he could find. Another restorer offered me 150% for a set he'd sold me the year before. Even Cary Condell came to me trying to buy a complete set many years ago. I sold off a papered Inagawa iron set I had of "Daruma" to a New Jersey collector a few years ago, and never seen the like since.

Ken, Skip doesn't 'do Internet'. He's an old style gentleman with a touch of Atticus Finch manners. We swap letters once or twice a year and talk in Tampa. He and Bob Haynes really stand out in the kodogu end of the spectrum when everyone else was focused solely on swords. He corresponds more with a few others on this list. I'm going to sidestep any row or flamewar here. Also got a long day ahead, so may not respond for a bit. I sort of took what Skip said as already established, and am surprised it is debated. There wasn't a rigid system from top to bottom, but there were court rules and in some instances battlefield rules. The private doesn't wear Inspector General's insignia (unless a movie staring Danny Kaye). I think there are examples of this as far back as Kamakura - Nambokuchu tsuba. Others might be able to illustrate further back based on certain kodogu I am thinking about, but I can only say with certainty that the tsuba thing goes back to the Mongolian Invasion period. I don't have my Nihonto Kodogu books for the winter, so cannot really illustrate this. It is as Skip says, much akin to general's stars and lieutenant's bars. I think it is less straightforward during Edo period, but still a sense of do n don't based on rank. EDIT: Reading Tom's and some of the other posts, I guess I should make it clear- Some of the pre-Edo tsuba were every bit as Overt as 4 star general insignia vs 1 star insignia vs major. I don't know about lower ranks.

"Fürwhar" oder Fürwahr? Lucky lotto ticket right here.... If we win the grand prize, then free Juyo for each of the current admins (Brian, John, Jean) and for Pete. The rest will get a Nihonto Lottery.

El Lotto, Yo tambien.

Mike, You asked me before what schools I collected. Your Moritoshi is exactly the sort of thing I enjoy. It is well done and has a certain sense of humor to it. Dark as night tiger with gold bright eyes, silver teeth, and a laughing cat smile. It captures the menace of the tiger in the dark, the feline fluidiness, and Cheshire Cat smile of something that knows it is big, bad, and got you dead to rights. ~~~~~The artist isn't a biggest name artist, but he is good. In this example, he's also added a dimension of something specific- sort of the hypnotic threat (the more you look, the more you want to keep looking- though bad for you). These are the fun or interesting sort of mood tsuba that I like having rounding out my small collection. Please consider bringing it to Tampa. I'd benefit from studying this particular fine example of Unno Moritoshi's work.

Herr Richter, Thanks for posting these. Your visual database always amazes me. I thought to begin a visual database with many of the images I catalog, but realize it would probably be better to collaborate with someone like you and one or two others that have assembled what are already very extensive catalogs. In conjunction with Wakayama, the Haynes Index, and some of Mr. Sesko's work- it is nice to imagine it becoming the Kodogu E-Encyclopedia. It would be what we call a nice, "academic labor of love" for the person who can coordinate it. At one letter of the alphabet per month, maybe 2 to 3 years work? In regards to this artist (Umino) Moritoshi: Thanks to you and John and another private party, I have now seen several of his works. He seems very fond of the design of goddess and gods in gold. He is a bit prone to caricature of the faces, but I like his sense of humor in his work.

John- Wow that was fast. Thank you for the information. Yes, Mito work fits with what I am seeing and some of the cartoonish rendering is more the sort of thing I can understand being done in late Edo / Early Meiji as western influence spread. Hope your last storm passed uneventful. Both neighbor and I seem to be out making post summer repairs. If anyone can scan in the reference signature from Wakayama Vol3 page 101, I'd appreciate it. From what John wrote, I'm fairly sure it is authentic work- but good practice to confirm it.

Storm Sandy resulted in all of my Nihonto & Kodogu books spending the winter in northern storage. I am looking at a nice pair of menuki by "Umino Moritoshi". Very complex but slightly unrefined work. Mori as in the mori used for Osafune Morimitsu. Toshi is complexer old form. It may be simplified to new form 'Toshi' in some modern texts. __________________________________________________________ Can anyone scan or type in the appropriate Haynes entry for me? If there is a reference signature in Wakayama or elsewhere, I would also appreciate that very much. I'd much appreciate it, as I am curious about this artist.