Curran

David's well written reply basically nails it dead center. The Myochin school is a long long long line, with some important offshoots like the Saotome school. Their work varied considerably through the ages, but one of the things they are most know for is the visible grain pattern- especially the mokume grain pattern tsubas. I happened to be reading up on the school today, looking for more information on the pre-Edo period of the school. There is not much in English that I am aware, and one reference claims they didn't make tsuba pre Edo. I don't hold with that, as the tsuba I was studying seems firmly late Muromachi and NBTHK papered to Myochin.

Kanemoto-den. Belatedly, I see Mr. Runagmc beat me to that answer. The shot of the ji-nie blowing off the backside of the hamon crest just above the habaki was a nice one.

As Moriyama-san said.

I am glad Bob said it: looks fake <-> modern to me Like a modern that has been poorly doctored to look older.

Note to the Yamabushi thread: That Baur Collection book they recently posted for sale is a difficult to impossible one to find. It took me a long time to score my copy and has proven useful in many ways. School charts, examples, reference mei, and tons of eye candy. I recommended it to a friend last Sunday at the NYC club meeting, so apologies if it is gone and Boris hasn't updated yet.

That would be the one. Rather than its old green Tokubetsu Kicho papers, I decided to see if the current NBTHK could specifically attribute it to Hayashi Matahei (punch mark pattern is his). It is better iron and more elegant than some of his works, and it would be interesting if they gave it to anyone else.

Mike, USPS: Yes Express Mail: Yes Returned Goods: Yes Only mistake I made was insuring and declaring for $5000. I filled out the long customs form with Japanese Antiques.... Harmonized Tariff Code 9706.00.00.60 I've been through this with Darcy, Benson, Christies, and other places enough that I know what I am doing. If anything, I was particularly honest this time with a note on the customs form saying "To NBTHK Museum and then to be returned". Practically the cleanest package I ever sent, so naturally I get what Chris calls the anomoly. It still is an anomoly, and Chris is right in that probably it will need be refused and returned to me. Others have been kind enough to say my kantei skills don't suck.... but for these pieces (2 with old green papers), it didn't require much effort: (1) Kaga Goto Set (Each with 3 Maeda mon on them) (2) 11cm O-Katchushi - ~Ubu (3) A very nice "Miyamoto Musashi Namako" Hayashi with goldwork So if you see any of these floating in Japan for sale... please let me know. Curran

Actually, the amount is 8000 yen for one set of documents to start.... Then presumably more elsewhere.

Peter, Thank you for your kind words. My work is very high stress work, so I try not to let hobby like this bother me. But it does feel quite the stone in my shoe. There is a very sympathetic Customs agent trying to help, yet the problems seem to be more with Japan Post right now. There is a chance my items might not be returned, even though they have NBTHK paper with them documenting they are antiques.... not weapons. Yes.... they are claiming the little shakudo menuki and kozuka (no blade) are weapons. Of course, it is explained to me money and several months of time might make it admitted so they can go to shinsa. Basically, I must pay about 50% of their worth. ___________________________________________________ I recently felt I wasted a bunch of time with an American visitor wanting to have us drool big wads of cash over his out of the closet sword. Now I feel I'm phfissing into the wind with the Japanese. Makes me tired. I'm not sure of the intent of Peter Klein's movie reference, but maybe I should watch it again and redirect energy towards building children's playgrounds (film reference) Anyway... this pretty much cans any chance of me sending things to Juyo shinsa next year.

To be clear, and in conjunction with Chris' statement... Yes, why bother submitting fittings for papers if value is $1000 or less?? In the $1000 to $2000 range it is up for debate, and makes more sense on signed items. The items I am submitting are each in the $2000 to $3000 range, and even then it was more whim than logic.

Of course he would be prejudiced there, But at this point even I'm d*mn tired of the NBTHK papering. After having been trading email with Japan Customs and various concerned Japanese individuals, even though they recognize the NBTHK papers and the items are antique, they are insisting upon tariff for the value above 200,000 yen. They are also intending to hold the items past the shinsa deadline while they sort out the paperwork that was already filled out properly. I have no guarantee the items weren't damaged during their handling (kodogu set is pristine shakudo), and they are being obstinate about just returning them to me. I regret to say: caution to those sending your items to Japan. Even just fittings.

With the Tokubetsu Kicho papers discount and sending several items together through a friendly agent, it wasn't going to be too much more $$$ than NTHK shinsa for fittings. Plus, I hadn't sent anything to the NBTHK in many years. It was almost just a weekend whim. Now I regret it. -------------------------------------------------------- Probably NTHK next time, if it should be papered.

Chris, Thank you. I'm working with a major Japanese dealer, and he is frustrated. I will correspond with him again. Unfortunately the deadline is this weekend. Yen rate being what it is, the Japan customs being as screwy as they've gotten, and the NBTHK Hozon fittings papers being a bit questionable recently.... I wonder why I bother. If I must have them papered, then waiting till the next time I attend an NTHK shinsa would be better. Good luck with your upcoming shinsa.

In submitting 2 tsuba and a fittings set to the NBTHK for shinsa, the Tokyo Customs House has seized them and declared them part of weapons despite their antique nature. Even if recognized as antiques, Tokyo Customs wants tariff on the value above 200,000 yen. The tsuba have old NBTHK papers with them in the package documenting them. They also have been fully declared with harmonized tariff code 9706.00.00.60 Tokyo Customs does not seem to care, and the dealer in Tokyo that I am using is trying to talk some logic into them. Others in NY have voiced to me that they hesitate to send anything to the NBTHK now, for various reasons. I politely listened, but didn't their concerns applied to fittings. Anyone think it would be wise to get the NBTHK involved? If so, how would I do so and to whom would I write? Sincerely in a bit of shock at Japan Customs, Curran

This was an exceptional waste of time. I think Ken summed it up. I spent several hours on Sunday at the NYC meeting with opportunity to study several Juyo Bizen works from the Kamakura and Nambokchu period. I cannot believe I wasted near equal amount of time trying to advise on this fly-by-night visitor's sword. It was just nice to see a koto Bizen sword out of the woodwork that was still in polish. Good luck with Mr. Strauch. Travel well. Iterasai and Mar sin leibh.

Professor Emeritus, Think of this as an open classroom in a rather large class hall full of other classrooms. The lecture is Impromptu and students come in as they become aware of it. Many may only listen until they feel up to speed, or may simply listen. The response is much more slow and evolving than in the old email lists, but compounding over time. Some of the more famous or popular topics in the forums have lasted weeks, months, and even a few for years.... I'm still quite here, visiting the classroom whenever I can get a break from my professional work. Curran

Piers, For the most part, I think Chris B. worded everything very well. As for Nihonto version of a wine diary, it would be useful if a consensus could be reached. I doubt it could with the whole NTHK vs NPO NTHK. Both orgs suffer for it. I do think people heard there were some bad "green papers" and therefore think all green papers are junk, but some of them are quite good. And conversely, I think some of the recent NBTHK Hozon papers for fittings are no better than place-mats. The merits of good vintage would be like older 1980s and 1990s NTHK papers on Bizen swords. Often they are good as gold. A consensus would be difficult to form currently.

L. Why don't you bring it to the NYC meeting on Sunday, and ask the value there. The preponderance of fittings collectors there will give you an estimate.

Rick, Tsuba is Edo Higo, ie a flashy Edo work in the style of Higo workmanship. Flashy, but not particularly valuable.

Martin: Then it sounds like you would like to buy this man's sword? Make him an offer. Ginza Choshuya is definitely full priced. It is like the bent wood chair I am currently sitting on: A mile away in ever trendy SOHO they wanted $758 for it. I purchased it for $215 here in the Financial District. Martin.... really, make this guy an offer of $10,000 if you feel it is worth much more than $10,000. Simplify his life and make yourself a wad of cash in the long run. Otherwise, I think you're tinkling on his head and telling him that it is raining. _______________________________________________________________________ The sword is nice in relatively good polish. No visible flaws I saw in the photos. I broke out the Osafune Books: No Match There The Bizen Taikan (BIG book of Bizen): Reference mei are many, but not of best quality. No clear match. Some of the other Bizen Books picked up over the years: Didn't find any clean matches. The sword looks correct for Osafune Bizen type work, and Nagayama notes that starting in Oei period this side group's work were more uchigatana length (ie. hence why 25 inches may be correct for this guy). So the jury remains out on this one. It would be a good sword for NBTHK Hozon shinsa. I am not sure how much value or validity a shinsa outside of Japan homebase would provide, as this requires more specialized references than any shinsa team would logically travel with. I really think the owner should get it looked at by a competent sword group such as the San Fran or the New York one. Either that or just submit it to shinsa. Curran

I absolutely must agree with Grey. I re-read up on the Norimitsu line last night and while certain things about this sword ARE correct for the line, they really were second fiddle to Oei-Bizen. Work (stock & options markets) has gotten a bit hectic at the moment with the current spazZ Panic. Really.... the HFT machines of Goldman and some of the uber hedge funds just so manipulate the common trader-investor now. I'll look at the owner's signature and make a call on it this weekend, if he's still following this thread. Should be easy enough with the books I have, unless this particular gen is very undocumented. I am surprised the sword is still in polish as well as it has been. Much of the value is simply in that.

I figured it would be best to let others speak up on this one for the benefit of the owner. Though I don't collect swords anymore (never say never), Bizen and especially Oei Bizen is my primary interest so I have a very good idea in this area. Hearing from people like Brian and Grey should be about as honest as it gets. The good is that his sword is -surprisingly- in relatively clean polish. Shirasaya looks well preserved with one of those little ivory or bone mekugi rings. Habaki is rather mediocre, and we know prices on getting those replaced with well made current gold ones have climbed more dramatically than gold. Another negative is that is is on the short end, especially for Bizen around the period where it is dated. The fact that it is relatively in polish is the major caveat. I must remain suspicious about the back story, because polish is as it is and there appear (to my eyes) some small repairs that I think look relatively modern as in the last 30 to 40 years or so. I'll break out all the big old Bizen books and give it a once over this weekend. I'm sure some others can yes/no the signature faster than I can, as the owner has provided a very clear photo. As to $$$: well, some people care for Norimitsu more than I can understand. However, as a second stringer in the Bizen pantheon, the values on his swords have really fallen off since the 2008 financial crash sort of dried up the art (art sword) world in many ways. Soethebys and Christies have basically given up on Nihonto, as so much doesn't sell anymore. I think Grey's estimates are accurate, though perhaps a bit conservative. He has purchased and sold many many more swords than I have or ever will. A dealer would probably offer the owner a -20% to -50% of that amount and then mark it up. If the owner really wants to sell it.... those prices are probably fairly liquid. I highly recommend the owner have this one inspected by a reputable group (either club or shinsa). NBTHK papers add the most value, but are insanely expensive now with import/export and the yen/USD rate being toe cheese. If Yoshikawa Elder were still alive, I'd say definitely take it to him at the Tampa shinsa. However, this should be an easy one for them to Confirm or Reject. Problem is there are a lot of gimei Norimitsu out there, as (being a second stringer not as readily in the average reference book) he was a good target for forgery. Ko-Curran

The cabs were new to me. My host father and brother where quite able to thread the needle in their vehicles of choice, and even they looked on with awe at some other drivers abilities. It is hard to imagine squadrons of steel body bucket taxis flying around. Taxi drivers were so relatively docile during my time there.

This forum is quite large and I think you will be surprised how many of us are interested. There are many listener and readers. I had only a few conversations with Col. Dean Hartley before he passed, but enjoyed them immensely. Website: http://home.comcast.net/~ColHartley/index.html Often I enjoy more talking with collectors from the 1960s and 1970s.

What is with all the Stuarts in Canada? Me'thinks a Campbell like myself would be less than welcome. Of course, having an Irish last name for a first name.... the wife jokes at Campbell expense that I had an Irish ancestor that didn't run fast enough. I thought to direct you to search on Location = Canada, but that didn't produce the results I'd hoped. Depending upon location, across your broad country... there are people to direct you. However, Nihonto collectors for many reasons including security would probably rather I have them get in touch with you. Ie. they'd have my head if I throw out their information. And... since protecting information is part of my work... that would just be poor form. If you have something in particular, post here at NMB and send me a PM. I will try to get the Canadians I know to give it a look. There are at least 3 wicked smart ones I know. Curran Campbell