roger dundas

Might it be Zhang Guolao and his mule ? I have one such tsuba, a very nice one depicting him, one of the eight Taoist immortals and the most eccentric, living between 650 to 750ad, was a great traveler and was mostly depicted riding his mule sometimes backward wearing a traveler's straw hat. He was born old and is the patron of elderly men, his image believed to bring long life and a good death. I wonder what it is about riding a horse or mule backwards? Roger j

Thanks Ford for that. I have a tsuba (unfortunately I'm incapable to show it here) with quite a thin plate, at the mimi 2.3mm, 67 x 64mm in diameter, a horse and rider one side in fairly high relief and the reverse face with only a boulder in the lower left corner, again in relatively high relief. The boulder (and horse and rider) being a worked inlaid iron insert all makes sense to me now. Thanks again. Roger j

Thanks for the information Ford. At last (for me at least) we are seeing how a lot of this work was done. What is obvious is the vast amount of patience and time it must have taken to produce pieces that today we can purchase for so little. I suppose the craftsmen became skilled and fast but for all that, still one hell of a lot of patient labour to produce the more complicated designs. I love them for that fact- a craftsman's work, what man can achieve. Roger j

That to me makes sense Dale, especially with those multi spoked/multi petalled Saotome tsuba - drill holes at each end of the spoke/petal 'aperture to be' and then patiently saw away. Imagine it would take a while. Roger j

Thanks for that Darrel, I have used a Jeweler's piercing saw myself but only on base metal sheeting (gilding metal). So I take it that the fine blades can handle iron satisfactorily. Roger j

Ford Hallam in a post to the thread 'Tsuba Casting Molds' on the 10th November commented that "tsuba are not cut out with a saw blade but are drilled and chiselled as routine". Now is that for all tsuba do you think or know or maybe just confined say to Namban type tsuba with their scrolling vines. If this is the case it would probably mean a lot of file work to sharpen or round off edges where required? There is still a lot in the making of tsuba that baffles me. Roger 2

Thanks for that Darrel and I fixed up the mm/cm issue Roger j

I will do me best to put this lucidly. I have been following closely the discussion on 'cast iron tsuba' here for a number of reasons. One amongst them is the question in my mind about any iron tsuba that has a carving in high relief on the plate, say occupying one quarter only of the face(or more or less), standing up from the rest of the plate by one to two mm, such as with Dragon and fish depictions on tsuba I have plus others. What had me wondering was the large amount of iron to be chiseled away to just leave a raised figure. A lot of work I would have thought. For all that, is that how it was done? In the Shibuiswords 'tsuba for sale' site, under SAGA.KANEIYE SCHOOL and TFTS UNIN SCHOOL etc section there is shown a tsuba by YAMASHIRO no KUNIEUSHIMI JU KANEIYE and marked 'For Study'. (I hope I got all that right)- but what was mentioned in the write up was a reference to "iron on iron inlay". It is the first time I have come across 'iron on iron inlay'. . Does anyone know how often this technique was employed, how frequently and does it account for many of the 'high relief' iron carvings on tsuba. The Tsuba makers seemed highly skilled at welding parts, such as spokes and such into the web of a tsuba. I always feel like I'm lifting my head above the parapet here in case I receive an incoming rebuke. Roger j

What I am hoping for and looking forward to is someone here eventually summing up all of the evidence and telling us exactly what was what, when it was what and how we will be able to recognize it. In the meantime some very smart, articulate people have been busy here, jousting away. Impressive. Roger 2

I'm the one giving a every posting a tick of approval for continuing to offer opinions Roger j

Well, how fortunate are we to be reading (or for some being involved} in this discourse. I just want to say this regarding my own interest in the topic : My collection of tsuba consists of a fair share of so-so iron pieces. Having put these forward for comment here over the past few years, sometimes someone would comment- 'I think it might have been cast'. Now I found that always unsettling because just what exactly were the tell tale signs? I'm still a little, possibly 'a big bit' unsure. I read what Ford says and well done Brian for encouraging him and well done Ford for taking the time. Roger j

Excellent- the topic is still bubbling along pleasantly with maybe a little way to go yet. Just observing and learning. Roger j

Hasn't this been a great discussion. A few issues still for the less experienced such as me to fathom but really, the NMB at its best. With members showing a mutual respect that is so often lacking in parts of our western world's day to day behavior. All is not yet lost. Roger j

Darrel- don't things like that test your good temper. Not much else you can do but say what you wrote-'c'est la vie', or maybe 'just what the hell are you bxxxxxxs up to with no notifications etc?' But you showed better than that, many of us wouldn't. Roger 2

Thank you for your response Chris. The 'fiddly' small leafs and flower heads (if that is what they are) were interesting- imagine cutting them down and then inlaying them. The flowers or seed pods look like space satellites. The decorative extremes that many Japanese craftsmen (and women and children?) went to, such as 'nanako', fish roe pattern which is particularly impressive, is a monument to these artisans values and skills. Is it any wonder collectors get so enthused especially with the best but also with some lesser work. Artistic skills and history both. Thanks again Chris. Roger j

Oh well, I suppose the question didn't draw any reaction but the reason for posting was looking for any response or opinions as to the small brass decoration, the small leafs especially around the seppa area (is that right?), the few (four I think) flower or seed heads, the haphazard twigs. A lot of work by the brass inlay worker and not a typical design from my limited experience. And the period for such brass inlaid tsuba still open for conjecture ? I think the smaller size doesn't grab some collectors. I am comfortable with it and that is important. Roger j

I presume this is correct- possibly Momoyama period. Not big at 70.5 x 64.6 x 3.6. Nice iron in my opinion. The brass inlay is interesting being a lot finer than usually seen, somewhat haphazard with twigs (vines possibly) with small leafs/leaves and flowers I think, taken up to the rim/mmimi but not over and onto the mimi itself. The outline of the seppa dai area again different being small leafs inlaid rather than an oval line of either inlaid or overlaid fine brass wire or brass rope. I suppose a katana sized tsuba might be more appealing but the small size here rather suits the inlaid design IMO. I would be interested in any comments re the above if anyone would be so kind.

It is good to see you still able to post Dale. Record rains and flooded rivers where you are? All is OK here, plenty of rain but not the deluge many places received 200kms north and east of here. Many, many more houses and businesses going under, flooded, than was expected along the Maribyrnong river and the suburb of Maribyrnong (10-15km NW from Melbourne centre). Stay safe down there. Roger j

I for one always look forward to seeing what next you have Bob. Your collection also IMO sets something of a standard for those venturing into the world of tosogu collecting to aim at, to keep their sights up. Looking forward to your new thread, including some of your favorites (and why they are?). Roger j

I know not a lot but would think that your price is very fair (as usual). Roger j

Great to see a comment from a man who has very successfully made tsuba. My remark is just to indicate how fortunate this NMB is to have knowledgeable people in this genre putting forward their opinions. Roger j

Good day gentlemen- I still find this issue about which tsuba is fully handcrafted and which instead has been initially cast and then hand finished ( tidied up ), a difficult one to easily identify and maybe I am not alone?. Dale (Spartancrest) and Glen (GRC) seem to have an eye for it. The lost wax method is used for casting gold and silver where a wax 'model' was carved, suspended in the clay like slurry investment, melted out of the now hardened clay and then the molten silver or gold was poured into the cavity remaining- often (mostly?) using centrifugal force to aid the process. I think that is how the process went. What did the craftsmen do with this iron tsuba casting? Not a wax original but an iron, hand worked original master I presume and then used probably multiple times ? Or a clay or wooden 'master'. And are those beautifully crafted, somewhat delicate in their design Shoami tsuba entirely handmade - I would personally think so. I know this topic has been gone into a few times but has it all been completely resolved and have I been too thick to get it ? I am always pleased to see Dale and Glen's sharp eyed opinions. Roger j

I like that one Dale and with the yen dropping as it is, makes everything look better. It will be interesting to see the sale price. Roger j

How about a third example of this sort of tsuba. A big heavy Iron tsuba.......85 x 76 x 4.5 (I don't have a weight). It was cheap ( $80 US back in mid 2019 ), I quite liked it and I added the two brass pillows (or rather, a friend did for me)- is that OK? The filed recesses were already there and either the original inserts had dropped out, were taken out or never were inserted ? Extravagantly sized rectangular hitsu and presumably later additions ? Similar to the above and an old one you showed Dale ? And my apologies for posting the first pic wrong way up. Roger j

Many thanks Dale, Mauro and Bruno- particularly for the other examples and posts that you put up. Personally my research skills are fairly ordinary so thanks again for sharing yours . Roger j