roger dundas

I appreciate very much your responses Curran, Jean (ROKUJURO), Tom, Bruno (KURIKATA), and Mauro plus the illustrations you included. Could it be that there weren't many inlay artisans bothering to do this sort of design work as there don't seem to be too many tsuba of this inlay type around- at least to me with my limited experience ? Possibly the 'buying public', the Samurai, weren't drawn to the design ? Again thank you for your replies. Roger j.

I had no problem with your response Curran other the some embarrassment on my part for my carelessness. I have seen some of your fine tsuba (and others) on the NMB plus your comments on items where your strong knowledge is offered. I suppose rather what I was wondering was my inability to stir comments from others who do have knowledge of the Heianjo genre . Was it the erroneous heading or the way the posting was put out there ? I certainly value the commentary seen on this NMB. Roger j

Oh well, I like it . A t least it isn't a casting or one of the mass produced tsuba that keep coming up for sale over and over again . What is comforting for the collector is the intricate work involved which deters (at least up until now) fakers or reproduction workers from banging off quick copies for the hungry marketplace. That's my take on it plus the never to be known mystery of its history, the 'where have you been and what have you seen ?' story of its existence. Sorry again for the heading error. Roger j.

Thank you Curran. It's not the first time my description or heading has been in error. The only excuse I can offer (other than just plain ignorance) for my brain slipping a gear might be age and the onset of mental feebleness. My wife tells me that I'm going ok but I do watch for a smirk . Now is it HEIANJO ? I think it is. And like you say, it is a perfectly fine tsuba even if miscalled. Once again Curran and other members, thanks for having me. It's been much appreciated.

Here is a tsuba purchased earlier this year from the NMB For Sale section off Tom (LEPORELLO). It is not big being only 64 x 60 x 4 and I would have liked a katana sized example but for all that think that this one is a great piece in showing the great skill of the brass wire inlay artisan. I am interested in the opinions of other members here about these thoughts which are about these great skills and the ability to chisel such fine, convoluted channels, twisting and turning to create this design and then to inlay the fine brass wire into such twisting channels. Pretty amazing work for mine ? And their regularity and evenness is impressive. The patience and skill producing well executed nanako is of course possibly the ultimate. There are so many ways to appreciate the artistry and history of tosogu. Roger j

Once again, thank you for the information and great examples pictured. Roger j.

Thank you Jean and Curran for that . A not so old ancestry and little change. I asked because I have seen tsuba with broader than usual apertures/ana and wondered if it indicated a larger ko-gatana or kodzuka but apparently not. So again, thanks. Roger j

Was the question not worth considering ? I was just wondering about how much kozuka and ko-gatana had changed and evolved from earlier times . I have never researched this particular topic and thought someone might like to tell what they know ? The knowledge of Board members is usually broad and enlightening- especially in these (for some 'fraught') times. Thank you. Roger j

Is this the place to ask the question- Just how different, if at all, were the earliest kozuka and blades from those we see today ? I don't know that I have seen any early examples posted. Hoping those with any examples are o.k with the question and might oblige with some pictures ? Roger j

Unfortunately and sadly, Auctions can easily be manipulated .Buyers in hard times can collude by not competing on certain predetermined lots by working out before hand- just who will bid on which lot , but this really only works if the buyers are dealers looking to stock up. Probably not relevant here. Any buyer not part of the cabal derails it somewhat of course. An auctioneer can keep taking spurious bids to work the price up to where he or the seller want its but runs the risk of pushing it just a bit too much if the legitimate bidders pull out. Tsuba auctions could certainly be manipulated but to what degree would depend on a country's pertinent laws and how easy it would be to implement them or catch out a villain. Roger j

Dale, How can we be sure that anyone had bid at all ? Auctioneers will put in 'dummy bids' to get an auction going or to try to get the bidding up to the reserve. It wasn't a crime here in Victoria to do that- I'm not sure about now . At times the auctioneer g can get left with the item if no one rises to the bait and tops the auctioneer's bid. For a fair time of my life I was an Auctioneer/ wool valuer- firstly selling wool which was fairly ' fast and furious' but the buyers (maybe 40 or more) were professionals buying at auction day after day, week after week. No false bids here. Later, property, house and household goods, (like tsuba) is slower selling to mostly amateur buyers. Different techniques might be and are used. Roger j

I will add no more than this to the above conversation except to say to Adam that your challenge to Ford certainly bore fruit but your method was less than diplomatic and you seemed reluctant to concede much kudos to Ford in something he obviously is well versed and learned in, probably one of if not the best. Don't p... the man off Adam, his input here is outstanding. Roger 2

A great exchange. Adam's audacity and self assurance is fascinating , Ford's response outstanding and more than that a great lesson about a subject he is so at home with. Well done to you Mr Hallam. Also well adjudicated by Brian. Wonderful entertainment in these unsettled times, at least for me and I hope for all. Roger j

Hello Yas, I meant no criticism of you or Dale at all and I certainly don't mean to make you feel uncomfortable . Instead I thought that the information you and Dale have presented is excellent but possibly the topic could make some of us tsuba collectors a little disturbed.......which of our collection might be thought of as junk copies ? Never the less it is an important discussion to have, I believe. So, well done Yas, well done Dale for mine. Roger j

I could well be wrong but I get the feeling that this above topic and thread is somewhat uncomfortable or disconcerting for some but is an important topic to my mind ? And Dale and Yas' knowledge on this matter is invaluable. Roger j

I hope I am not out of order to expand this questioning about the source of supply of some of these much reproduced tsuba designs. Apparently tsuba are in plentiful supply in Japan I have been told but no doubt some designs and types are much more marketable and in demand than others, so supply of these types can become a problem to Specialist shops and Auction houses. This can be/is a headache for Art and Antique dealers of all art forms everywhere; that is getting marketable items for sale. The art market here in Australia got a huge shot in the arm when Aboriginal dot paintings became popular. They could be churned out in large numbers, put up for sale and auction and became a wonderful source of income for existing dealers and the carpet baggers and urgers who climbed aboard the 'wagon'. The bubble has pretty much burst now. That fact is what got me wondering about the source and intention of the much copied designs . And are they considered legitimate ? Roger 2

Having followed this and similar topics pretty closely I haven't picked up just who may be responsible for turning these things out (unless I have missed something?). We know where they get sold but do you think the subterfuge is on a commercial scale or is it just the odd individual, possibly a Tech' College student making- designing or copying, casting, shaping these things as pot boilers( pocket money) or maybe just testing and refining their skills and making money on the side? It could be a lot of fun and financially rewarding for a young fellow wanting to supplement his finances and to trick the experts (and non experts) as well. Copyists have always been a problem to the Art world. Roger 2

Further to Spartancrest/Dale's remark about the Mino type Ho-Ho bird in the original post - I didn't know they were so often found although there was one for sale here early in the year. My eyesight isn't what it could be but I thought my example above had more care taken with it's finish and the nanako appeared finely and regularly done ? I have no other shakudo tsuba or any other with nanako and just got this one for a less costly example. Probably like most here, I see the best examples as wonderful works of patience and care- one slip and the artisan/artist has to wonder "how can I get around this ?" Or maybe not? Possibly they never slipped up which makes them more astonishing. Roger j

Personally I think that they are dreadful things and completely unattractive in all ways- but to each his own. Lacking in so many ways (to me, anyway) their existence surely has the effect of debasing tsuba collecting to some extent ? Top end tsuba will always be top end - I suppose meaning great works of design and skill or history will be secure but more utilitarian pieces might suffer by comparison ? A question really. Roger j

Thank you all, Robert, Grev, Mauro, Brian, Dale and Florian for your responses. Starting with Robert and Grev and the whisky reference and just what to collect- it is an issue we all face which is where do we draw the lines in our collecting. I set out just wanting a few old tsuba of reasonably good quality as a small sample, not wanting to outlay much money but the darn things pop up every now and again to draw you in. Mind you if I was younger and earning good money I would just love to collect some of the great pieces (but I suppose they are rarely if ever available to the hoi polloi ?). Something similar to what we see in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts et al. Good to see Mauro's lot for comparison noticing that they don't show signs (or do they?) of multiple mountings to different tanto wheras the few I have do show signs of use on different tanto. Re the possibility of a larger tsuba being cut down as Brian and Dale noted had also crossed my mind and the large aperture/hitsu to accommodate a large kozuka on this tsuba I presume takes it's history back somewhat ? Is the small hole on this tsuba for the use of a tether or is the hole too small ? And love your examples Florian. So, collecting tanto tsuba can be O.K. Roger j

Here are four tanto tsuba - nothing exciting but for me, a representative few. They didn't cost much individually but my good friend who appears on this NMB and only bothers with very good quality Nihonto questions whether a good bottle of whisky mightn't be a better deal than one of these ? Obviously he has a point. I haven't included measurements but 6cm is the largest diameter amongst them. Roger j

Oh well, I appreciate your arguments Adam but seeing the scar on Richard's tsuba and the story of the battle proven katana in Christian's article I will just keep an open mind on the veracity or not of the scars on my tsuba. And thanks John B for your pics- a very sharp cut and a sharp photo too. And BaZZa, I turned out a failure in the vandal stakes, certainly never understanding wanton damage or destruction - we get it often enough nowadays with people maliciously lighting our bush fires. Roger j

Greatly appreciate the above posts, so thanks to Greg, Christian, Adam and Richard and really feel that these possibly/ probably are battle scars. Just as a matter of interest, are the Japanese likely to disfigure historic or any other items just for the hell of it. Why I ask this is because here in Australia (and I will probably offend some here) we do get our share of vandalism, things unnecessarily broken or destroyed . But then, like much of the new world and now the old world too, we take in a lot of migrants from various under privileged backgrounds. But I once read that it is where the Anglo-Saxons settle you will get vandalism . Now don't attack me, it isn't my opinion and nor do I know if it's correct. The point was that it appears to me that the Japanese as a people value and preserve their heritage. For what the comment is worth, when I was a boy I tried to knock our local street light out by throwing stones at it. I was an accurate shot but never succeeded. I blame the Anglo-Saxon part of me. Roger j

I certainly am enjoying enjoying the information coming out here and especially the story posted by Christian as well as the tsuba from Richard.' Now my summation is this although I might have misconstrued the information : Swordsmen/Samurai normally defend against their opponent's sword attacks using the top or side of the blade ,probably preferring to deflect rather than take a straight out hit which might break a blade ? But if a swordsman was being overwhelmed (or confronted with multiple opponents as in Christian's post), then he may not have this choice and sword strikes might get blocked or deflected by an habaki, or the tsuba instead in the confusion. As for the strike marks on my tsuba, they don't seem much if any different to that on Richard's naginata tsuba ? Is that how it is ? I am very able to misread things . Roger j

Thank you Adam and Malcolm and I very much enjoyed the article from Markus that Malcolm included. Adam you are correct about the different deformation in the tsuba metal if these are sword cuts as against the blade cuts on my katana which are very sharp and clean but could that be due to the big difference in metal quality ? 'Iron' tsuba, refined 'steel' katana blade ? If they are sword strikes then it would seem the person wielding the sword with this tsuba was being given a hard time of it ? Roger j