Beater

Hi everyone, I was recently offered a rather nice looking gendaito in shirasaya which was made by Echigo kuni ju Uemara Sadakiyo, which I am serious about buying. He is listed in Slough’s as in the Special Honor Noted Seat (Sword forging teachers) and I know he and Amata Akitsugu were both pupils of Amata Sadayoshi. I also believe Sadakiyo had two pupils himself - Uemura Sadayoshi (his son) and Sato Kiyokatsu. I would like to know if anyone has any more information about Uemura SADAKIYO please? Thanks in anticipation, Kevin.

You beat me to it. What is the point to all this?

Hi Eric,You and I are totally on the same page regarding this subject. My comments about papers are born out of a personal bad experience, so now I tend to prefer to buy swords which someone else did the legwork, and which already have them. I lost all confidence when I submitted a Hizen Masahiro to shinsa in London 2006. It received a pink paper (gimei) but they said it was Hizen Tadayoshi school c.1750. It was recommended I have the mei removed and resubmit, when, I was told, it would paper. My stupid fault, but somewhat disappointed at the outcome, I sold it. Only to see it appear on a forum some years later, having obtained papers to Shodai Masahiro. After that expensive lesson in why not to trust experts, I decided never again to go through what I saw as a flawed system. My Nagamitsu, which was purchased at a local auction, is a keeper so I shall not go through the process as I am totally sure it is authentic. Incidentally, as you mentioned it, they certainly do paper and are well documented in Slough's and on Dr Stein's website. https://japaneseswordindex.com/naga.htm I've attached my oshigata, a photo of some papers to another Nagamitsu and a page from Slough's, for your interest.

Hi Dave, That sounds rather harsh, especially as this thread is in a section specifically about Military swords. I suspect the majority of folk began their journey into Nihonto at an entry level which probably involved a sword in 'gunto mounts. Some progress quickly to Nihonto and others expand their military sword collections. We are all collectors and whether it is beer coasters or Juyo katana that we are collecting, it isn't helpful to dismiss others who simply don't share your exact preferences. Only yesterday I was reading another thread in which someone expressed an opinion about people who collected mumei or suriage Shinto blades - wasting their time and money etc etc. I'm glad others did challenge that elitist and narrow minded opinion. Often what we choose to collect is dictated by what you can afford. Sometimes people who could afford more expensive Nihonto prefer to seek out that low number copper hilt NCO and who can say they are wrong? Indeed if the present downward trend in Nihonto continues and the ever spiralling prices for Mantetsu, NCO swords and many kaigunto continues, we may soon find ourselves as the poor relations? Getting back to the subject of this thread, I think we may be seeing the start of a new trend amongst the governing bodies in recognising swords which previously didn't meet the criteria. I personally think it's a mistake but who cares what I think. I currently only have one gunto-mounted sword - a signed and dated (Bizen ju & full art name) Nagamitsu. It's not papered and I wouldn't ever consider having it papered - why would you? It is what it is and, paradoxically, a papered Mantetsu-to is still exactly that.

Please see my earlier post on this thread above. I am equally dumbfounded. The answer to your question however, appears to be, because they, whilst having no art value, have "historical value and are documentation of the war and conflicts from the past." Using that explanation, I can see no reason why any gunto cannot now also get papers. This is a very odd decision indeed. Personally, unlike those who detected the Japanese were lamenting, I suspect they are in fact rubbing their hands together as this will stimulate business, at a depressed time for Nihonto, and fuel the inexplicable rise in interest (and prices) for certain gunto. I hope Mr Bowen, who elicited the response from the authorities, will seek further explanations in how this "historical" criteria will be applied in the future, to other types of non-traditional gunto.

No, Tsuruta San said Han not Hon. I think, as in Handachi mounts, it means partial? Han-tanren = abura yaki-ire-to. Partially forged from mill stock, some folding, differentially hardened using oil. Does have a hamon although it is nowhere near as active as a water-quenched sword, but lacks hada.

It doesn't appear to have been mentioned / considered yet but has anyone got another example of an authentic Gosaburo Yamada cutting test mei which they could post here? I think a comparison of that feature would be valuable. Reassuringly, the last two scans Georg sent me appear to show a hamon in the area under the habaki. He tried a different method of lighting to provide excellent images of the mei but it also seems to have shown the hamon too. I have had to greatly resize them to be able to load them here, which has made them slightly blurry but I think you will see what I mean.

The owner of this fascinating sword and I have been in discussion for many weeks now and amidst all the jubilation we are seeing, I wonder if I might drop this document into the melting pot, as a small reality check? We have seen the venerable members compare this mei to one or two examples and yet already differences are apparent. The document makes specific reference to this actual smith and advises that comparison is necessary against a high number because of the variations in his own mei over his career and, of course, the skill of forgers, not least the accomplished Kajihei. If I am not mistaken Promo’s decision to migrate to this forum was principally because he hoped the wealth of knowledge and experience would result in some informed comments about its likely authenticity or not. Whilst we all know the final say must come from Japan, I’m sure he would welcome not just your opinions but some rationale behind your thinking. So far, blade shape, file marks, end of tang shape* and signature placement have received mention but such obvious features are unlikely to have escaped the attention of an accomplished forger. I think it will come down to a stroke by stroke analysis to provide a credible explanation of initial impressions. Sadly, of course, blade condition exclude other comparisons here. * Ironically, I note the tang end shapes of above genuine examples show variations Gimei-falsche Signatur.pdf

Jean, Thank you for speaking to me in a polite way. I fully understand and accept everything you say. With hindsight, what I regret was asking. I should have used the search facility first and gauged the mood. No, arrogance and elitism were not actually what sprung to my mind as the possible reason behind the policy. Neither did the references to the absence of open-mindedness surprise me. Rest assure my friend, if there were a Nihonto equivalent of the hippocratic oath, then I promise "primum non nocere". Sincerely, Kevin.

Hello John,Thank you for you wise words and suggestions. I couldn’t help noticing you specialise in gunto. In fact I read a thread in which you people were sort of wishing for a special dream sword and you wanted a General’s shingunto. Although I don’t collect military swords anymore, I thought this might at least interest you? I no longer own it and the photo of the sword is taken on my phone camera of an old photo, so apologises for that but you can see the important bits. It was surrendered in Jan 1946 to Major Gen. Evans at Bangkok Siam. The largest surrender ceremony of senior Japanese officers, consisting 18 Generals and two Admirals. It took place in front of a contingent of Allied soldiers which included Colin Butler, the senior RAF officer in the region. After each of the Japanese walked across the lawn and bowed to Evans, they laid their swords on a Union Jack covered table, bowed and returned to their line. After the ceremony the swords were distributed to the Allied officers present by Evans and Mr Butler received a shingunto with gold thread aiguilette tied to the ashi ring. One Sunday afternoon in the late 80’s Mr Butler arrived on my doorstep carrying his sword. I had not been expecting him. He had obtained my name from a group of Burma Star veterans, who I supported in their twilight years. He left the sword with me for a month, to clean and research before returning to collect it. In that time I discovered it to be a 14th century, signed tachi by Shigetsugu. I even had a Japanese speaking friend send details to a well known Japanese sword dealer to get a valuation. Some months later, again without warning Mr Butler returned and asked me what I would be prepared to offer him. I told him with three children, a mortgage and policeman’s wages, I couldn’t afford what we both knew it to be worth. He said, I know that but what’s your best offer, as I want you to have it. As you can see I mustered the then (for me) eyewatering sum of a thousand pounds - about a quarter of its worth, which he accepted. He later said, whatever you had said, I would have accepted as you clearly love these things. The kaigunto, as you like gunto, has a Shinto blade by Hoki no kami Fujiwara Nobutaka. The linen surrender tag is featured in Richard Fuller’s book, which I expect you have. Both swords long since sold. I also read your thread in which you expressed your like of swords with practical fighting quality over art swords. Well don’t worry, you’ll get over it. You’ll discover in life that life-giving qualities always prevail over life-taking. Conquering evil, not the opponent, is the essence of swordsmanship. One more thing you’ll notice a photo in front of my home made stand. It is one of a bunch I got with the sword. When I told Ron Gregory and Richard Fuller about it at the time, I was informed that neither the Imperial War Museum nor your equivalent in Australia had any photos as, due to the sensitive nature, all official photographers had been banned. I asked Mr Butler about this who told me he gave his box Brownie to his Batman, who was in the crowd and snapped them. So I had copies made and gave them to Mr Gregory to circulate. There were no identifying features on the sword to determine which of the Generals it belonged to. The aiguillette means I believe, he was an adjutant / aide decamp(?), probably to a Field Marshal and I think in Fuller’s Shokan, two are listed amongst those Generals present that day. I apologise for that rather long walk down memory lane but felt the need to indulge myself. Oh, and don’t worry, I didn’t get an amateur polish done on either of these???? Regards, Kevin

Nick, Namban (南蛮) is a term you must be familiar with? Where found, such as in Nihonto mei and tsuba design. are just two Nihonto-related examples and are evidence of foreign (European) influence. Apologies for not adding a name. I was unaware of all those rules - like most people that sign a contract without reading all the T’s & C’s. Kevin.

European influence on Nihonto (plus their firearms and armour) is well documented but I think you really know I wasn't making a reference to Nihonto - just "swords" which have been made here for thousands of years and smooth stones found in streams used to polish them, since the Bronze Age. Transferable skills and all that being the point, which I don't think was wasted on you. But please, re-read it carefully Nick. The request for a German / European polisher isn't to satisfy my needs. I am, as stated, in the UK and know where to go for all the Nihonto services I need. I also subscribe to a notion of horses for courses and who I would use for any particular task. I remain open-minded in respect of unlicensed polishers - for appropriate work. Incidentally, those swords which I own which are in Japanese polish and papered, were bought in that condition, which I find is the safest and most economical way to achieve those ends.

I don't post here very often, more of a lurker but I now realise this is one of those can of worms subjects. Sorry, no grief intended, only wanted a quick bit of advice, less of a lecture. Perhaps my low post count made you think I'm new to this. Anyway, now you know better, perhaps you could tell us specifically, what you see wrong with the two examples posted in the links above? Looks good to me. In the 80's, when I began sword-collecting, there were certainly dubious polishing practices but there are now amateurs who do not make the sort of errors you unfortunately experienced. I am in the UK so unable to comment on what is available in the US, other than Fred Lohman, nor indeed in Europe, which is why I asked the original question, for the benefit of a European acquaintance. So, whilst I appreciate your advice, which was well intentioned, I have opinions of my own, which may not necessarily differ greatly from yours. But please remember, in England we have our own tradition of sword-making going back thousands of years and the Europeans have shown a bit of a flair for art over the last few millennia, so don't be surprised if the skill-sets here are different from where you live.

Firstly, thank you to those members who supplied details of German / European polishers, as requested. The photos supplied seem to contradict the opinions expressed above that amateur / unlicensed = must do harm and that is certainly not my experience. Your assumption is correct. His sword is being taken to a European NBTHK meeting for discussion. Better, I’m sure you would agree, than opinions based only on looking at photographs here? Depending on the outcome he will decide what the next step will be.

Hi Guys, A friend in Germany, new to the hobby, has asked me if I know of any polishers either in Germany or the wider Europe you can recommend? He has neither the money or sword to justify a Japanese polish but wants someone competent who will give it a new lease of life without doing any harm. Your suggestions gratefully received. Regards, Kevin

Looking forward to a full explanation of the rationale behind this decision. If blades made outside Japan, from non-tamahagane and employing mechanised procedures are to be classified Nihonto, surely this opens the door for further diversity?

Hi Randy I would be so grateful to receive a digital copy of your fantastic oshigata. Kind regards, Kevin Elliott.

The general style of this sword is like that used by the Royal Navy with obvious changes to the hilt ornament - an elephant rather than lion and the cipher on the guard. Swords of this type were made both by Wilkinson Swords in England and in Germany by Eichorn, for the Siam and Thai navy. A similar sword is discussed here: http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?103665-Elephant-pommel-sword It shows pattern drawings supplied by Mr Wilkinson-Latham, a direct relative of the famous sword-making firm.

He must be a carpenter, like the others I've heard say that. Another equally famous orator said, "There are as many opinions as there are experts." (Franklin D. Roosevelt)

Resurrecting an old post as I couldn't help noticing this sword, which I once owned. (Sold to Bill Tagg, Liverpool Militaria many moons ago). The story has been slightly distorted - it was sold by the family of the British officer at Shanklin Auctions on the Isle of Wight. Attempts were made via the auctioneers to contact the family to establish a name etc., but they wished to remain anonymous, only discovered he was a Brigadier and the sword came from a "high ranking" Japanese Officer. The sword was entered into the (2008) London NTHK Shinsa and received a pink paper, which was the reason I decided to part company. I have however, heard it subsequently received papers, as did the tsuba? Persistence, it seems, pays off!