Jussi Ekholm

What made you choose these 2 swords András?

I think it is important to learn the correct Japanese terminology but it is also important to be able to explain things to for example beginners in their own language too. In my opinion you need to be able to explain things in easy to understand manner so that newcomers can start learning too. As new people are not exactly popping out around the corners I think we could/should ease their way in as much as we can.

Congratulations Dave, I am very happy for you.

Oh I guess my line of thought didn't come out very clearly as I meant the swords themselves have "prestige" when collecting at high level. I guess "desirability" would be a better word to use. As I saw discussion thread about bitcoins where Darcy had made a blog post (just skip the bitcoin part and focus on nihonto pricing as it is very well written) https://www.nihonto.ca/ha/?p=507#more-507 Darcys writings are always nice to read and they of course blow mine away. However as I live in different world than him it would be really nice to friendly headbutt with him on these things. I agree with him most of the stuff he writes/says but would be fun to argue friendly some small points back & forth. When you read his post you can see that even high end dealer will easily agree that there is big fluctuation in prices at the high level. Of course if you think someone who has money to spend say 50k€ to a sword is not on his/hers last pennies but you could easily say the value could very well fluctuate between 40k€ and 60k€. So that is a huge risk/profit potential. Where as for a very basic sword you could say 5k€ and it fluctuates between 4-6k€. The range is similar in percentage but monetary losses/profits are small.

Here comes part that might irk some dealers and high end collectors... I have been planning for few days to write a post about "prestige" "air" etc. what term you want to use, and it's involvement in sword price. This is actually quite difficult concept as swords are one of a kind art objects. And I personally feel that the pricing gets lot lot tougher and more fickle the higher up you go in rarity & value. We all have probably witnessed what we personally consider as overpriced items. And item being overpriced is in my personal opinion easier to spot at lower level. For example if a sword has ko-Uda attribution it will not be in the " most desirable" class even though it would be jūyō or with very nice koshirae. Now this is where I might go against the common "norm". As it is often said that buying the best quality one can afford is the best investment wise etc. I will say low-mid class swords are much less fickle when it comes to pricing. Therefore in my opinion they make a safer investment than top tier swords. Of course they do not have the profit potential of high class stuff either. Yes high & top tier swords are of course in different league in terms of prestige but they also have lot more "air"/leeway/potential profit, whatever you want to call it in their price. In some cases this is perfectly understandable but there are lots and lots of swords that get a lot of prestige that I do not yet fully understand. Those who know me better, might know that I like signatures a lot. As to me signature carries a lot of prestige. However some mumei sword carry prestige that overrides many lower swords that have signature in the eyes of art collectors. As a historical collector it is for me a slightly difficult concept to grasp. As on these cases with some mumei ō-suriage swords the attribution carries a humongous prestige. Also to note the the higher you go the more fickle the pricing will be. There can be big drops or raises in prices. Because at this level items are rare one of a kind items. But like I said pricing will be lot more fickle, 10-20% price drop for example will be a lot more cash than same level price drop in item 10x lower in price. Then there is a case when item is so rare it might be pretty much unobtainable otherwise, then it pretty much does not matter where you put the asking price. As if someone will want to buy that they will have to get that piece. Examples might be something like signed Awataguchi pieces, signed ko-Bizen etc. For example I saw a Gojō Kanenaga tachi at Taibundo (same sword was sold in the USA some years ago), I understood it was rare but had to made research to really understand how rare it is. I believe only five signed Kanenaga tachi remain, 3 jūyō, 1 jūbi & 1jūbu, so the chance to own a signed Gojō Kanenaga is pretty much that sword... Would be nice to hear some more thoughts about the subject.

I've said it before but it can be said again that Mike is doing great work on tv screen. I am impressed as he seems to be very natural.

Unfortunately I cannot find any info about this Kamino school in any of my references. Nor can I find any Nagatoshi smiths working during late 1400's. I think old swords from Hyūga province are very rare, Nihontō Kōza has tiny portion about them. Old Hyūga smiths seem not to be in every smith indexes as I couldn't find some Ōei & Eikyō signed & dated smiths from Hyūga at Seskos Index. I would ask from Karl Peuker as he is member of NBTHK EB, and even though he is also a dealer I am sure he'll help you out regarding this sword and other swords too. Might be just me but it annoys me almost more than anything if I cannot see picture of the NBTHK certificate.

I got focused on 2 items as I don't know anything about armor or koshirae, or new stuff. Miike Lot 24 - This is the most interesting one as they write it is attributed to Miike, I am assuming this has NBTHK papers? Miike is very desirable attribution and only good blades will get it. Yasumitsu Lot 51 - I am not feeling very comfortable about the signature. Given the asking price I am fairly certain this is paperless Yasumitsu. If it has NBTHK papers verifying the signature it is dirt cheap.

There is still 6+ days left so I am sure it will rise a bit. 1 of my 2 swords was sold by Kanetoyo long time ago. However I would not personally be comfortable from buying anything from them based on their pictures. Based on their photos this does not seem to be in too good condition. It is difficult to say anything as they pictures are poor. I hope Nakamura-san will get some better pictures of his swords as it might boost sales a bit. Kongōbyōe school is not too highly valued in general, it is wakizashi length and has NTHK papers. I personally like Kongōbyōe and NTHK papers but market is what it is... Can't say anything about koshirae as I don't know about those. To me koshirae looks quite nice, more desirable than the blade.

I think it is most likely an undocumented or much lesser known Mino smith. I used to own a tachi signed Kanemoto that had similar moto character. Only Kanemoto smith from Mino I found in books using this moto character was Kanemoto working in early Edo period. It was not fitting for my sword and I think it is also too different to fit your signature. Here is image of comparison mei. It seems he used both the Kanemoto line moto character style and this one.

I think you are meaning the Pass Factor article? Here it is: https://www.nihonto.ca/ha/?p=439#more-439 Markus wrote really nice article Sword Prices, Origami and Samurai Income. Briefly summarizing the average income of lower ranking retainer was about 12,000 copper coins per year. some examples of paid sword prices Inoue Shinkai 45,000 copper coins, Tsuda Sukehiro 30,000 copper coins, Kunisuke, Yoshimichi, Tadatsuna 21,000 coins. Later time Suishinshi Masahide 30,000 coins, Taikei Naotane 20,000 coins. Markus used an example from 1619 where Hizen Tadayoshi charged 100,000 copper coins from high ranking Samurai (who raised money 4 years to afford that sword). For sword appraisals as I've seen people often are not happy with the position NBTHK has today, well during Tokugawa rule Hon'ami family had monopoly on sword appraisals. They issued the appraisal values for swords in kinsu. And Markus explains in the article how kinsu can be converted to ryō that can be converted to copper coins. Markus has an example Hon'Ami appraisal paper (1721) for Yamato Shizu, valued at 30 kinsu - 1,200,000 copper coins (if I did the calculations correctly). This sword has modern tokujū designation and is the sword on the pg. 118 in Ausgewählte Japanische Kunstschwerter book. In the book it is written that the sword belonged to the Maeda clan in Kaga. Darcy had this https://www.nihonto.ca/fukuoka-ichimonji/Fukuoka Ichimonji jūyō that has Hon'ami appraisal (1712) for Ichimonji valued at 100 kinsu - 4,000,000 copper coins (I am really not sure if you can compare these to Edo smith prices at all) Markus has in his webpage article a jūyō tanto to Nobukuni which has Hon'ami paper (1701) evaluated for 6 gold pieces - 240,000 copper coins Lower ranking retainer averaged 3 ryō per year which converts to 12,000 copper coins. Where as in the article Markus gives average net income for Hatamoto being around 150 to 300 ryō. 600,000 to 1,200,000 copper coins. So I think it is safe to say that it would have been very rare for lower ranking person to own a top tier sword.

I've never met Robert Haynes nor was I alive in the early days of NBTHK or even during the "Yakuza crisis". But I got from the article that he has quite negative view of the modern day NBTHK. Living in different continent and different era I personally have quite different views as I am very appreciative of NBTHK and its international branches. Where would Japanese sword collecting be without the NBTHK might be the question? I personally appreciate NTHK, NTHK NPO, JSSUS, European organizations etc. everyone promoting the study and collecting of Japanese swords is doing are great job. Of course as it is with humans there will always be power struggles. Stories are always different depending on who is telling them. It was nice to hear his point of view.

Awesome JAS guys.

Well I was first thinking about posting some of this into the first sword thread but I came to my senses as this is not something first time buyers who are just getting into the hobby need to really think about. Well I've been spending almost all of my free time lately by just browsing sword prices just for fun, so here are few thoughts. All my research is mostly focused on pre-1450's as that is where my own intrests are, and my own research about prices is an ongoing work in progress. I was reading the Pass Factor blog post by Darcy and it made me think a lot. Of course Darcy focuses on top tier level and passing from jūyō to tokujū which will be always unobtainable for me but it can be used for lower tiers as well. The smith/school (or attribution to one) matters really a lot when you get into more expensive stuff. Here are some thoughts about that. For example out of 5 Yamato schools Hōshō and Senjuin are the "high tier". As crazy as it sounds as the differences between Yamato schools can be very small but if the attribution in paper reads Hōshō rather than Shikkake it will have a positive effect on pricing. Darcy was surprised by Unji counts at jūyō and that made me think as all the Ukai group swords I've seen have been really good. While it might not be "top tier" group they have made many excellent swords that have gotten jūbu & jūbi designations. And by just browsing my own lists for Ukai group, most of them are jūyō with some TH and Tokujū. I haven't yet come across a Hozon Ukai sword, I am sure there are some around but their overall designation level is high. Some thoughts about Rai / Enju / Ko-Mihara. For Rai it seems to be mostly jūyō followed by some TH and few Hozon. My data has most of mumei Enju attributions having TH papers followed by jūyō and with some Hozon mixed in. I will follow that up with Ko-Mihara attributions, which have mostly TH followed by Hozon and few jūyō mixed in. So it is easy to see the desirability gaps between these 3 schools. It is also easy to see how cherised Aoe is. Most (almost all) of the mumei attributions to Aoe in my data have a jūyō designation. I hope this might spark some chatting. I'm not really good at making opening posts.

I personally think that many Heian & Kamakura pieces are masterpieces due to their age and historical signifigance. That is just my personal view as a historical collector. I don't stress about quality but focus on history. Then when you get lots of history & quality together you will get a masterpiece. I am no swordsman nor an engineer who knows scientifical stuff but I do not think there will be a huge performance difference in combat situation between a well made Kamakura period sword or a well made sword that is made today. I believe with modern knowledge the good swordsmiths of today might generally make swords that outperform many oid masterpieces in combat purposes. However they will never have the 600-700+ years of history behind them, and it must be understood how different the knowledge was back then, so the level of swordmaking was highly impressive. In my view lots of fame etc. comes from romantical viewing and cherishing the history. However I feel that it is slightly unfair towards smiths that worked during later periods and made good swords too. Skilled old smiths already had legendary fame during old times, while new smiths always had to prove themselves. In reality sword should be good if it cuts well, holds up for use and is good for you to use, meaning it fits you. Of course most of us collectors don't judge swords by same criteria then old fighters did.

There is no doubt that Darcy, Andy, Fred, Mike etc. great US dealers can hook you up with great sword for 25k budget and offer their expertise in the field along with the package. I assume you want a sword in koshirae? Something signed, papered in good condition and with nice koshirae is perfectly doable and will be a package you will enjoy. With a budget like that I am sure a sword to your liking will easily pop up.

Awesome to hear Ray.

For the Shimada Yoshisuke wakizashi, the papers give Tenshō as the era. That would point it at the latter part of 1500's. As the sword received attribution to Shimada Yoshisuke rather than just plain Shimada I'd think it's good quality Shimada work. Unfortunately I can't say much about the tachi. The highlighted section has some high quality early school Noritsune smiths highlighted. From right to left Yoshioka Ichimonji, Ko-Aoe, Katayama Narishige has the added part in brackets, province unknown, era Muromachi. Narishige seems to be very rare name, only 3 smiths listed during Muromachi in Sesko Index. Kuni fumei is very reasonable explanation in a case like this as signature is rare and there is a high chance the smith is unknown. I have kuni fumei on other one of my tachi and I think it is perfectly reasonable as it is (most likely) not work of famous smiths of same name working at same time period.

Hold off the urge to buy. Get into local sword club meetings, meet people and see some swords. Spend some time thinking what you want to buy and why. http://www.ny-tokenkai.org/ny-tokenkai.org/New_York_Token_Kai.html

As we have been talking sometimes what kind of focus people have in their collecting etc. I'm quite curious if someone happens to be collecting or knows someone that collects mainly utsushimono? I've sometimes wondered that and now that Ray & Jean posted few nice ones recently it came back to me. Here are few examples to get this going. Koryu-Kagemitsu - http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/a00487.html Sohayanotsurugi - http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/a00489.html Sanchoumou - http://www.samuraisword.com/nihontodisplay/shinsakuto/Ono_Yoshimitsu_Tachi/index.htm

Unfortunately I am not well versed in later swords. I think the signature looks poorly cut but I couldn't find a comparison example from Mikawa Naoyoshi with this signature. Here is one of his later signature Naoyoshi 直義 : http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/14976-new-acquisition-temple-sword/

I think it is quite difficult task Alton. But here are maybe some pointers. 2. Noritsune I notice that this does not have a paper. Noritsune is quite rare name, most of them are early Bizen smiths and few other early smiths too. Could you show the signature on this tachi? If it is legitimate signature it is highly valuable. Of course there is always possibility of an unknown smith. 1. If you have attribution to Gisuke it means Shimada Yoshisuke. 1st gen (Gisuke) would be in the middle of 1400's. There are 9 gens coming up until mid 1700's. I'd guess a long hira-zukuri wakizashi like that one could be from 1500's. 3. Morikuni, seeing this signature too would help a lot. There are Morikuni smiths in many provinces during Muromachi period & Edo period. This looks like shortened and quite curved so would be nice to see the tang and sword more closely. 4,5,6,7,8 are pretty difficult to guess like you I'd throw in Late Muromachi - Edo to these. Many Kanesada & Kanemitsu smiths in Mino. I like you picture and idea for collecting. I hope we can offer you more help if you need.

Never asked from the Japanese HQ but for me the assumption has always been that if a mei is partially unreadable like here they will indicate further information in brackets (smith, school etc.). In some cases the mei has been attributed to certain smith if it fits but there are so many Kane x smiths working so I think Sue-Seki is very reasonable attribution if the sword does not show very identifiable characteristics. Here is a Hozon yari where Fujiwara X Kiyo gets den Takada attribution indicating they are meaning the spear is Fujiwara Takada but are not guessing the X Kiyo smith. http://www.e-sword.jp/yari/1410-4022.htm Here a TH example Bishu Osafune X mitsu gets Hidemitsu: http://www.shouzando.com/k-hidemitsu170409.html I think a Juyo example here Bizen Osafune X mitsu gets Yoshimitsu (Tsuruginoya does not have picture of the paper but I believe they putting Yoshi in square indicate similar situation and as you look at mei the character is to me unreadable) : http://www.tsuruginoya.com/mn1_3/f00222.html Can you show a picture of the nakago and the blade?

I think like Ray on this one. I think it was a great opportunity for someone and judging on how fast it sold plenty of others thought that way too. Yes it might not be the most desirable Kagemitsu but it was for pennies compared to more desirable swords by him. Sword like this would indeed be a very rare opportunity for a low tier collector like myself to own a grand piece. While I might personally go for lesser smith in the same price point to find a blade more suitable for my own collecting desires. While I perfectly agree on Michaels view that for the price of 3-5 swords like this you can have 1 juyo class blade, I think I would personally rather own 3-5 Hozon/TH swords than a single Juyo. A sword like this is most likely one that top dogs don't pay too much attention. Of course when you see blades by very good makers at low price point it is given that those swords are not masterpieces but they offer little guys a chance to own something we never could afford otherwise.

Not the quality of pics you were probably looking for but here are few. I believe this is the same Kuniyoshi tachi that was featured in TB 623. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8Z0zNqUMAEcR2r.jpg There was and exhibition in Kasuga taisha in Nara. Kuniyoshi has a meito that was displayed in the exhibition. http://wakuwaku-nara.com/nara-news/kasugataisya-3/ http://www.sankei.com/photo/story/news/161229/sty1612290014-n1.html http://blog.goo.ne.jp/to3300/e/30bba7625b7830c8cca3ad8bcb0e3c59 Iida Koendo had juyo tachi by Kuniyoshi: http://iidakoendo.com/462/