Jussi Ekholm

I'm in fever so this might not be the most logical post but I'd say it is just error (or in less feasible scenario marketing but I don't believe in that as Aoi has listed several tachi as katana while the opposite makes more sense if you think business). It doesn't have paper yet and I'd assume after shinsa it would just have a paper that says Katana - mei: Muneyoshi and not any further remarks on it. There are of course real exceptions to the rules, I think Aoe probably being the most common one, as Aoe smiths signed on both sides but they pretty much made tachi due to the time period. Similarily here is an exception by Hōju: http://toyuukai.com/2015/10/%e5%a4%aa%e5%88%80%e5%ae%9d%e5%af%bf/ As far as papered mumei tachi by NBTHK, this following is just my own gut feeling and not based on anything factual information from NBTHK but I assume that if a mumei sword gets attributed as tachi it is ubu or near ubu and made as tachi around c. early-mid Muromachi at latest. Of course there will most likely be exceptions to that too. If the sword has been altered and has no signature then it will paper as katana (granted it meets the length requirements). I will illustrate my thinking with these two Ayanokōji swords both about 76 cm in length. Mumei tachi: http://world.seiyudo.com/product/ka-030617/ Mumei katana: http://taiseido.biz/cn11/cn22/pg584.html Of course koshirae brings whole new ball game as Ken mentioned. But that is the whole sword + koshirae while the papers are just for the blade. As I spent most of yesterday indoors in fever just surfing sword shops worldwide I encountered bunch of stuff from various sites that I'd consider misleading the customer, but as I haven't seen Aoi do that I don't go into that. Sometimes additional information in their description gives nice extra information while sometimes it is just the usual marketing mumbo-jumbo. Of course the sheer volume of their listings lets some errors pass too. Haven't done business with them yet but I always give Aoi thumbs up.

This is a great chance for everyone who can visit. Our Scandinavian group has great members and you'll surely have a great saturday afternoon.

Congrats Paul, I bet the competition was pretty tough.

I think pretty much everyone would prefer a sword with signature if it would be possible. However it is not always possible. Then if it might be possible you have to think if you will accept bad condition with signature or good condition without signature. Personally I'd go with signed sword in bad condition as I prefer the historical value signature gives in contrast to the artistic value that good condition brings to the table.

I think one of the problems tracking down information is the fact that the smith was not famous. I think it was said on the last thread about the sword. The unfortunate thing is that most reference books will have focus on the well known smiths. I don't have many references about Shintō swords but he is not featured on the few general ones I have. I'd think best bet getting information about him would be looking for some Japanese reference books that focus on this lineage. Fujishiro does not seem to have mei example for the 3rd gen. Just the information that you already know that he was Tōshirō and died 1726. Nihon Shintō Shi (only 1st) Nihontō Kōza (only 1st) Shintō-meikan (only 1st) Kantei-zenshu (only Nagamichi) Nagayama (very brief part about Miyoshi smiths)

I hope you will have a great meeting, and with a great presentation topic I am sure it will be enjoyable.

Very nice to hear about your experience Curran. They have quite interesting items in inventory and while I am not shopping anything I still keep browsing them often as they have many interesting items.

Thank you for posting this Uwe, your photography is just stunning.

Awesome job, that looks so neatly done.

Yep you are correct 秀永

Here is some data to back up what Guido was saying before. Nakajima Rai is a good attribution and direct Rai Kuninaga attribution is a great one for a mumei blade. Where as Echizen Rai / Chiyozuru attribution is not as good for a mumei blade. Now mumei blades are real pain for an amateur like me and that is one of the reasons I will value signature so highly. Some minor differences in perceived details might change an attribution to one way or another. At least that is how it seems for an amateur collector, mumei blades require lots of skill to fully be appreciated where as historical significance of signed pieces is so easily identifiable. Here is info from my small database of stuff sold by good dealers in the past years. I put my project on pause for a while as there are too many swords out there, as I started already to cut some of them out as I get swords & schools that interest me more and more. Of course the numbers are still way too small to draw any serious conclusions but it will at least give some hints. Nakajima Rai 5 mumei Rai Kuninaga - 4 Jūyō / 1 Tokubetsu Hozon 5 mumei Nakajima Rai - 2 Jūyō / 1 Tokubetsu Hozon / 2 Hozon (this sword will be 3rd Hozon) Echizen Rai 6 mumei Echizen Rai - 1 Jūyō / 2 Tokubetsu Hozon / 3 Hozon 10 mumei Chiyozuru - 1 Tokubetsu Hozon / 9 Hozon And as Guido mentioned Rai Kunizane for comparison too 6 mumei Rai Kunizane - 3 Jūyō / 2 Tokubetsu Hozon / 1 Hozon

You can also try kanji searches by radicals -> http://jisho.org/#radical That will be helpful if you see a part of kanji that you recognize and try to fit the missing piece of the puzzle. However these will be "dictionary kanji" as mentioned by Guido so it is sometimes not exactly putting 1+1 together directly.

You have a nice signed and dated wakizashi, from a decent smith so it will be nice collectable piece. However unfortunately in my opinion it will just be a nice sword nothing too remarkable historically but I don't focus this era so I don't know much about these. To be honest if you are sending it to Hozon already you might as well send it to Tokubetsu Hozon too, I mean it is just 10,000 Yen if it fails it, and 30,000 Yen if it passes and you'll have TH papers. As the sword seems to be in Japan and the dealer will act as an agent for you go for it. It would be much more money if you decided to give it a go at later time. Here is the but... if it would make huge financial gain to get higher papers I'd bet Aoi would have tried papering it already. After all they are in the business of making profit on their sales. I'd say the "market price" for the item might be pretty much the same with Hozon - Tokubetsu Hozon or even without papers.

I'd think that the purpose of udenuki would be keeping the sword within reach even if you lose the grip for example on horseback. I've only read the not drawing referencing to Satsuma, but might be more spread out as there was not any wars during the Edo period so udenuki were pretty much useless during peace time.

I could throw in a katana kake. Quite basic but a decent one.

Welcome Martin, very nice to have you here on the forum.

I guess the first one would be 備後国??横山祐成作 - Bingo no Kuni ?? Yokoyama Sukenari saku other side 備前友成???? - Bizen Tomonari ???? , I believe it might have something to do with him promoting himself as 56th generation Tomonari. Reference: http://sanmei.com/contents/media/O70239_S2842_PUP.html

I like Jeans guess above. Mumei swords are to me extremely difficult to judge. Here are 3 examples and Norishige - Tametsugu - Ko-Uda are different tiers Here is a tanto that got TH to den Tametsugu: http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2015/15856-2.jpg And for comparison jūyō Norishige: http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2016/16443-2.jpg Here is Ko-Uda blade which is polished in style that seems to bring out jihada: http://www.aoijapan.com/img/sword/2012/12552-2.jpg

豊州高山住盛家 - Hōshū Takayama-jū Moriie

I think you got a great find Robert. I can't see the mei well enough in the auction pic but if I'd have to guess I too would go with Genzaemon and early 1400's. Would be really nice to see more of the sword

1. List as much information you can about a sword, including lots of high definition pictures 2. List some basic information with a picture Number 1 approach is in my opinion the best as it includes that everyone will get that information. However the number 2 approach most likely will exclude "tire kickers" who have no intention of buying the sword but I'd think it will generate less traffic but maybe more serious inquiries. I've seen many high end item sellers use the number 2 approach too. For example I always want to see some asking price for the item, I get frustrated if the seller has something like "contact for price & information" etc. As I am not actively in the market for any high quality stuff I will never bother the seller no matter how interested I would be. I understand the "ask for price" for super expensive and rare items but not for some average items.

I think the double hi starts nicely. That is pretty much all I can say. Unfortunately the blade picture has focused on the background cloth and kissaki picture is blurred.

Do you have any dates planned? Or is any date possible for you? This one is currently on display at the Tokyo National Museum until 25th of February: http://www.tnm.jp/modules/r_free_page/index.php?id=1890

Here are few maybe bit controversial thoughts... Collecting Japanese swords is not a hobby for everyone. For example, I don't think collecting nihontō is a right hobby for me. So instead I will just focus on study & appreciation. For collecting you need a lot of money, while study & appreciation is much more affordable and I enjoy latter more. I've come to realize that owning something is not as important for me than seeing something. You will not learn everything just from the books. The reason for this is there is book knowledge and applied knowledge. My own is just mostly book knowledge as I have had just few opportunities to enjoy swords in real life. When you see swords and get explanation about them for example in sword study groups you will learn bit differently than from books as you have real live examples to study on. It is always amazing to hear more senior collectors opinions on things as you can learn a lot. There is a limit what you will learn buying 1,2 or even 10 swords. Yes you can learn a lot of things from even a single sword but there is a limit to it. For example you cannot learn to identify features that are not on that particular sword by looking at it. You have 2 very different swords, great but there will still be limitations. That is why sword study meetings are amazing. You get to see various swords and can discuss them with other interested folks. You've gotten great recommendations for books. My advice would be avoid buying too specialized books for a long time, you won't really need them. For example I got "Bungo Taikan" from Grey some time ago. I think I have only had one good use for it as a friends friend got a Bungo sword and he needed help for the signature. It is nice to have specialized books but even though you might have very large collection of books, I could throw in a bet that you mostly use the few good ones you've used for many years as first thing when looking stuff up. As Luis mentioned earlier Darcys advice of buying a plane ticket, I can agree totally on that. Seeing great swords is very important for study & appreciation. And travelling is really really fun. You'll get multiple trips to Japan for a price of mediocre sword, I'd rather choose the trips. Also I do not know any Hungarian collectors or collections but geographically you are quite close to Germany & Italy which both have very strong nihontō scene. As I live here up north I do not know Central European transportations too well but you can probably catch trains or busses cheaper than flying as I see you live near Budapest.

What made you choose these 2 swords András?