Hoshi

Interesting tangent Kirill, repackage it as its own thread and let's have a go at it. It's not good to let these things sit and simmer in vaguely-related threads where they're unlikely to gather replies, data and counter-arguments. It's a worthy topic.

Thank you Paul for this interesting topic. Michael sets out the big dream. There are a few cut-throat billionaires in Japan who can't even get there and money isn't the problem. It's a strange country. Here we'd just put everything in auction and let them bleed each other out to "price find" the piece. I don't know if this is only with sword because of their special cultural role or say, it extends to pottery and whatnot. Now we also have "quirks" in our aspirations, things which go off the beaten path or things we know just don't fit into the canvas. I'd love one day find a fine exemplar of Nosada's work paired with a Higo koshirae. Which is strange given my collection goals I also would love to find a particularly rustic Ko-Hoki. This one at least makes a bit of sense... I love swords with surprising stories. Discover new swords with great stories attached. It's an open-ended dream...no particular requirements here. Oh, and have many friends living close-by sharing the same passion, so that we can study and share today.

Jumping to conclusions isn't useful here. You should send it to a professional for appraisal, just don't expect it to be free like what we do here. There is no such thing as a "touch-up polish" - the blade either is worth a polish, or it is not. The traditionally-trained polisher will decide the most appropriate course of action, and at the end you get a bill. It's not a menu with options, and those selling menus are not the real thing. Now that being said, I think your ticket is something like this: 0. fatal flaw, no hamon, etc = -1000 EUR 1. shinto kanbun mumei with dressed-up nakago or some Muromachi blade restored with professional polish (~3K) = - ~2000 EUR 2. Ko-Uda, Naminoara, other "countryside" schools, restored with professional polish (~3K) = + ~0$-1000 EUR 3. Chikuzen or Etchu, restored with professional polish (~3K) = + ~1000-10000+$ (entering hard segment to sell, good luck). 4. Chikuzen Sairen, Jitsua, Sa before Masamune, Etchu Norishige, top masters showing O-hada, restored with top polish, new habaki, shirasaya, all the bells and whistle (~6K), pass Juyo, etc = 50'000 EUR+ Now you need to add probabilities to each segment. My guess is that we're squarely looking case 1. I do also think the hamon is strange, could be 0. I think, if any upsides, it's going to be 2. 3 is unlikely but you never know. 4 odds are close to zero. At this stage there is considerable uncertainty and the more photos, measurements, opinions, etc, that you can get, the closer you'll converge to the true probability distribution of your lottery ticket.

Same. initial pics gave me a good koto vibe, now I'm having all sorts of bad Shinto vibes. That lack of sori is causing strong disturbances in the Force. If it's shinto mumei with dress-up nakago you've set your money on fire. I love the vet bring back box though. It's a nice piece of GI history.

The problem with not tossing them in the fire pit is that these floating papers contribute to fraud. There is an aftermarket for green papers. The nakago "scrubbings" of the time aren't exactly distinctive and it's easy to doctor the paper. It's like having an old fake passport. Last I saw you can buy green papers or kicho papers, or even honami origamis, on YJP! These are used to cook-up frauds. I mean sure, go ahead and record the name of the person who submitted it and the year it went in, but that's all that needs to be recorded. These papers are radioactive now, and while it's taking time for everyone to adjust, that's the reality. Whatever is left floating around with a green paper should be considered dubious at best and fraudulent at worst.

Is there something I don't catch in the point you're trying to make? The green paper remains utterly irrelevant regardless if it is proven TRUE or FALSE because the modern NBHTK paper is the certification gold standard and the green paper adds no new information to it in terms of the sword's attribution. Or put in less formal ways, roll in a ball, toss in fireplace 😂 Perhaps you could explain a little more your specific scenario? As for NBTHK, NTHK, NPO, etc...it's all contextual. BIG NAME Green paper by itself = hot garbage BIG NAME Green paper + NTHK or NPO certificate in agreement = big suspicions: owner has been "rolling the attribution dice until results convenient" BIG NAME Green paper + NBTHK papers in agreement = never happens because green paper gets rolled and tossed into fireplace 😂 Now if it's medium name or small name on a signed sword, it's a different story. Then I trust NPO and NTHK papers because the US Shinsa is very convenient and paying 2K for hauling a blade to Japan to certify muromachi SUKESADA SAKU is just folly. Would you pay Kyomaro price for a Kyomaro with green papers and NTHK-NPO certificate? Probably not. You'd wonder why the owner doesn't like FREE MONEY by sending the sword to Japan and getting NBHTK certification. You'd be right in most cases. Not all, but the vast majority. If the "Kyomaro" comes from a dealer or someone knowledgeable with swords and it feels cheap then shhhh! it's a trap! And this inevitably gets priced in. Lately there are a few NPO "mistakes" that even the Market won't buy - for instance a Wako by Shinkai which went unsold in the infamous auction. 6K, Shinkai Wako. If it had NBHTK paper it would have sold instantly. These guys process a lot of swords with limited time and without weighty references overseas, it's normal mistakes happen. This topic is a dead horse but as we saw with Rich it's good to sometimes beat it up again to make sure it's really DEAD

Forget the kicho paper. Make a dense ball and toss it in the fireplace. If the sword comes back NBTHK Hozon, this is all you need.

You can't just varnish away a mei and assume the NBHTK will look elsewhere and return a papered sword. Imagine what happens when you remove your varnish: sword is both mumei (on paper) and zai (in reality). I don't know where this idea comes from but it's one that needs to go straight to the dustbin. As for this gimei sword, if someone studies the post history of the owner, I'm not even convinced its a real person. Not clear what's going on here, but I have a feeling the fraudulent scheme extends beyond the gimei + green paper combo.

This sort of conversation cannot work without specifying which bracket the advice applies to. One who is fishing on Ebay for nice waks cheaply priced cannot possibly benefit from the same advice as someone hunting in the treacherous mid-range. There is something for everyone in this hobby, and I think its important to qualify where the advice applies otherwise the message is inevitably elitist. Someone can do well in the Ebay hunt, and more power to that person.

For Shinto, blades which are Machi-Okuri cannot pass Juyo (there are certainly some exceedingly rare exceptions to the rule, though). Expect a big chunk of the price being deducted for such a blade. So if it screams "good deal" the Machi-Okuri, however small, is certainly to credit. While I'm sure it wouldn't bother most of us overly, it is however a substantial issue in terms of collectibility for Shinto collectors in Japan. Pristine condition is so important for later periods. It's the first priority. Unadulterated shape. Original Nakago, crisp and legible signature, good patina, these all play a preponderant role in Shinto which certainly eludes most of us and our collecting instincts. The wholesomeness of the form expressed through the pure intention of the smith is paramount in Shinto. Another way to put it is, where the beginner western Shinto collector sees "cheap" the old, hardened Japanese collector sees "ruined". At the end of the day, if its a major smith, and it's machi-okuri, then it's certainly a chance to get a major "discount" and hopefully sell close to the purchase price in the west because it screams bargain and some other western collector will want it, not understanding the gravity that Machi Okuri represents in Japan in terms of collectibility. One just needs to understand what you're getting into. It's treacherous territory. If it's not a major smith, and its Shinto Machi-Okuri, and more than a few hundred bucks I would run away. Keep your money to fight another day. As to why this is? I have a few ideas: It could be that because Shinto work lacks the luster of old koto masterworks, or its intense hataraki, that one needs to look and appreciate other parts of it, such as a fine cursive signature, and revel at the sight of rare type which flows effortlessly on the Nakago. It could also be that there is a natural filter. Collectors who don't mind dinged and beaten pieces will live just happily with Koto works. Those that require emergency aneurysm surgery in response to a mm thin kitae ware on the Shinogi of a great koto masterwork will find refuge in the perfection of Shinto. And finally there are so many shinto blades floating about that one needs a simple algorithm to sort them into the desirability ladder. Wholeness of the form is a simple criteria which filters what goes, and what falls off the ladder.

Look I got a deal for you. First of all it's a worthless blade. It's BAD. No bueno. I can smell the hagire. I mean - not a small hagire, but like, five, or ten? Maybe more Hagire. Ask Jean, he's had five hagire, blade just like yours. You see, it's not worth it. Second you can't push the dosh in. It's like setting your cash on fire. So I'm going to help ya out, okay? I help strangers like that, you know. I like to put my money on fire. I'm like that. I know a polisher in Japan, he's a top guy. I mean really TOP. Big name. He does BIG polishes for BIG people. He's from the Honami clan, he's the real deal. Now, I got a slot with him, you see. One rare slot. It's ten years wait, at least. And you need to know people. I'll put your blade through my slot. I could sell that slot you see, everyone wants a blade polished by HONAMI. So what I'm sayin' is that I'm making you a BIG favor. Now, if the polisher says it's good, you don't need to repay me for the slot okay? I keep the blade, you get the slot for free. Like a favor. If the blade is bad, you cover my costs, that's all, few hundreds, its CHEAP. You see, you only win. You like to win. I can see it. PS: Jokes aside, shape is promising. It's a good lottery ticket you have here. Go with Paul and get some opinions, and in the end you might want to give it a scratch.

Don't touch it with a ten foot pole. Mumei shinto waks can be bought by the kilo in Japan. Koshirae is an absolute gaudy mess. It is not a desirable set, even for a couple hundred dollars. You are better off putting these dollars in the pot and waiting for an opportunity to buy a solid piece on the forum here. For shinto and later, you want UBU (not shortened), signed, papered, and polished. And avoid Waks. Waks no bueno. Waks are a minefield. Go for Katana. In your range a good place to start is http://swordsofjapan.com/ - Ray here will help you find something within your budget which is collectible. Here is a great site to look at what sits at the top and learn: https://yuhindo.com/

I've gone through many Muramasa and I do find this distinctive hamon pattern especially in Ko-Wakizashi. I wish it had its own name. A pattern of three spikes repeating at an interval. "Gunome connected by notare" just doesn't capture it. I do agree that the most characteristic would have more angular elements in place of the spikes, which we are so accustomed to in Muramasa's work. Good exercise!

I like how we're all trained to say "Kanbun Shinto" as reflex number 1. And reflex number two is some variation of Mino. And understandably these are the most common ones to go around here and just looking at the base rate it gives us the best odds provided shape matches more or less. With the information available, the correct kantei here would be something which matches as close as possible the shape and hamon pattern - possibly later gen Kanemoto when the Sanbonsugi becomes so regular it's almost mechanical. Sukesada later gen could also work. The issue which really makes it tricky is that the hamon here doesn't represent the essence of any one maker. It has a regular Sanbonsugi portion and a suguha portion...what a curveball. So funnily enough I don't think Kanbun Shinto Mino would have been so far off the mark in terms of kantei. Wisdom of the crowd...

Koto nanbokucho generally have thin kasane, and a shinogi line which is placed higher towards the mune to lighten the weight by affecting the thickness of the cross-section, on these types of blade profiles with O-Kissaki. Here it is both wide, thick and O-Kissaki with a shinogi line which is closer to the middle section of the blade than the mune. This makes for a very hefty blade. The metal tends towards Muji-hada (although beware, could be the polish). It's machi-okuri and probably suriage, but again, beware the hadori work and the photos. Taken together this indicates shinshinto to me.

Looks like a shinshinto piece trying hard to look Nanbokucho koto. The steel, the thick kazane, shinogi placement, supreme health, and shape of the hamon and the relative lack of typical koto features indicates as much to me. Probably the goal was to make it appear like a Nanbokucho Aoe blade, or Soden-Bizen Motoshige, or perhaps Sue-Sa (Sa Sadayoshi?)

Last time I checked there was so many gimei/YJP! "treasures" floating about and being presented as legitimate that I just put it in the scam category of my mental repertoire. I mean look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qni28kP0dFo&list=PL9hcecXUdJrp396fVDoyOJsBQHmBjFJ_9&index=5 It's not even a decent fake. What a shame to put it up there without a disclaimer. Now to learn that they threatened lawsuit over copy-writing "Nihonto" just tells you all you need to know: stay away and give no credence to these people.

This doesn't compute. If a sword has juyo papers then the estimate is going to be higher, and the auction house will make more money. Pride or no pride there is no reason not to list those, except for ignorance. The "Kanemitsu" doesn't even have a legit Sayagaki. On top of it the auction house is covering its back with "either kamakura or nanbokucho" which is a weasel way to say that they don't trust the nanbokucho attribution.

Beautiful illustration that what we consider in the west as rare treasures, are in the east in such surplus they make for good kitchen decorative tiles.

The healthy thing to do is to prune one's collection to move up, and get better pieces with the money that is liberated. It just doesn't make sense to me to accumulate 100 Shoami ironwork, when for the same amount invested one could have a representative collection of tosogu, For example: One great and tasteful Higo piece One great old and dignified classic Goto One great piece of later machibori The later is the more desirable collection, and sits about at the same level financially, and is more likely to accrue value over time. It also goes to show the great currents of Japanese aestethics, from the austere inspired by bouddhism, to the formal and noble Goto, to the later lavish works and creative explosion heralded by Somin, etc. If one really wants to buy old iron, then rather than going through the various online sites and paying the foreigner tax, the better path is to go to Japan and arrange purchases by the kilo. These things aren't rare, even if we have the illusion that they are here in the west. I mean they're used as paper-weights... I like the idea of pieces having a story, having been cherished by a family, and so on. This is important to me also, and it isn't uncommon for a Goto set to say, come with a honami origami estimating its value, adding provenance to the piece, and squaring it as a desirable piece of art back then just as it is now. Continuity of desirability is important, and shows that there remain universals in taste and appreciation of fine artistry and craftsmanship. We should aspire to be continuity of this tradition of appreciation. It's a hobby with eight hundred years of collectors behind us. That counts.

I don't know if there are hidden quotas behind the Tokuju Shinsa. But I don't think it's a stretch of the imagination to claim that they include a slot or two for what we consider "head scratchers" - e.g. this Naminohira, Shikkake Nagatina, etc. So they just pick the best of the minor schools and pass them. Probably, these item compete within the pool of minor school items, aside from Bizen, Soshu, and Yamashiro. This is why we six ko-mihara blades passed through the history of tokuju, and why we don't have six more Fukuoka Ichimonji in their place. What's also striking to me is the number of Soden-Bizen items passing. And the excellence bracket for Soden-Bizen is getting stretched to include one more Yoshikage. Kencho is having a showing as well and has been on the rise for a while, with two passing - same number as Chogi and Kanemitsu.

My pleasure! This is over and can be moved to the sold section.

Removing scratches isn't as easy at it may seem. Indeed, no such thing as a "touch-up polish" which is a notion that comes straight from AOI's amateur stone job, it's a term that gives a lot of false impressions. Removing scratches requires equalizing the surface with a coarser stone and move all the way to the gentle ones from there and that's a time consuming process. Now, the harsh truth is that the new finish is unlikely to match the old polish, which means one should redo the finish on the old polish to avoid a glaring difference in style, which is a full process of shiage again. At the end of the day, removing scratches in a professional way is going to end up very close to the work of a full finish. The complexity of the process just isn't captured with the "touch-up polish" concept, which just should get expelled from our collective vocabulary as it implies it's easy, fast and cheap. We need to be a little stoic here and accept to live with scratches if the polish is good otherwise, it's a reminder of mishandling in the past and present.

Run away!! Bad gimei with dremel horimono. Get your money back if you can...

Shibata Ka!