Ted Tenold

Mark, There's really no hard fast rule on what is shallow or deep as expressed in a lineal measurement. It could not be applied so simply because of different lengths. A katana of 28 inches and 3/8ths inche sori would look vastly different from a 19 inch wakizashi with the same 3/8ths inch sori. Conversly, so would a 36 inch tachi. So really what "deep" or "shallow" are an expression of is coexists in relation to the length of the particular sword. A more accurate way to assess this would be expressed as: sori as a percentage of length, which would scale things differently and more in line with what you are trying to similate. However, again there is no hard fast rule of mathmatical expression and it is based on the overall visual form of the sword.

Undoubtedly, Bishu.

I agree with Pete on this. Do not reward bad behavior. Buying from fraudulent sellers both encourages them and empowers them. If they're dishonest enought to lie in a description of an auction, who's to say they'll actually ship it to you after you pay for it??? Your shoestring may fray and break.

Rich, You mentioned that you were heading for Japan soon (already went?). If so, try this shop in Kanda. I found a very hard to get book there in great condition, priced very fairly. Isshindo Shoten 1-3 Kanda, Jimbo-cho Chiyoda-ku Tokyo 101-0051 Kazunori Takabayashi 03-3291-1300 Might or might not get you the book you're after, but it was a hit for me. Hope it works out for you.

Yeah, I'm working on that. My friend sent me the pictures of the signatures and I could see part of the work on the side, but I had to crop the images to post them. He's going to send me some specific images and I'll post them up to see.

I have seen that before. Yes, signing in the wax or clay does deteriorate the form of the script. Problem is, this goes against the conventions of both sculptors, and also tsuba makers, by which both of these vases were allegedly made. I believe that a tsuba maker, working outside his normal scope, would treat good vase work either with the same care in signing, or even with better. Either artisan would carve their mei after the work was completed, if at all. Carving the mei into the waxes before the casting process assumes the work will come out as desired before finished, also a bit too presumptuous for a highly skilled artisan in my opinion. All in all, it's still quite enigmatic because the vases look to have some really nice on-lay, inlay, and carving work that would indicate a good maker. If they're reproductions, the work alone doesn't reflect it.

Moriyama-san, Thank you for your continued effort. There is no doubt that this signature is very ugly, and immediately cries out "poorly done gimei". So no offense is taken and there is no need to apologize for your honest opinion. The work on the vases is quite good though, so I thought it best to double check here with other knowledgable folks in case I was not translating it correctly. I think anyone of us could have signed better!

Thank you Moriyama-san. I agree with you that the signature is very rough and not very good. My friend is a collector of late Edo, Meiji, and Taisho era sculpture. He has a good eye for workmanship, is very experienced and doesn't buy signatures, but rather focuses on the works themselves. This is one of a pair of vases that he recently purchased. He also thought the signature was very inexperienced looking. The work in the vases is very good though, so he bought them. The other signature is below. It looks a little better in execution, but still doesn't make any sense to me either.

Hi all, I know this isn't a sword fitting, but the story goes that this vase was made by a tsuba makers student or brother(?) so I'm digging for some reference. I've been able to read much of it but the sixth and seventh (kyo?) in conjunction with the subsequent eighth and ninth (masa kore) are evading me. So far I have: TENPO GO NEN SHI X X MASA KORE The signature is pretty rudementary in this vase, but the other one the signature is better. However the other one is signed ommiting the sixth character and the "kore" of this example. So the story has some validity from that respect. Anybody have any thoughts? Once I figure this out I'd like to do the cross reference to find out any possiblity that a tsuba maker did indeed make this vase. Thanks, Ted

I ran a comparison of the character to my art signatures book. The closest composite to yours reads "fusa". I've searched through some other books and come up short on any "Fusayuki" though ("Sogyo" would be the alternate reading). *shrug* The radical on the left of that character in isolation is "shi" or "ito", but in conjunction with other strokes can comprise more familiar characters such as tsugu, nori, or tsune. The character it most looks like is the one that is also shared in the province names of Shimosa and Kazusa, also seen as Soshu. You can see the character I'm talking about in Rich's Nihonto Kanji pages in the Tokaido road section at: http://www.nihontokanjipages.com/kanji_ ... inces.html Bit of an enigma. Moriyama-san? Any comment on this one?

Carlo, Since the period was so long ago it's likely that little, if any, of the lacquer we see would be "ubu". However perhaps if it were originally there it's replaced to keep consistancy to the piece in subsequent polishings? I am speculating a bit here based only upon what I've seen. And nothing's to say that core steel could have been exposed later and then lacquer installed because it is a practical phenominon to begin with. That being said, the kitae ware were likely exposed in the original initial carving of any Horimono. Sue koto was a period of mass production and the order of the day was quantity over quality. Now also remember that naginata and yari were considered even more disposable on the battlefield than a sword. So the attention to construction was less and concern about shingane or the exposure thereof not of great importance. So likely, the kitae ware were always there and the lacquer just kept crud and moisture out of them. Japan is a very humid place in the "battle seasons" of spring and summer, and marching in the monsoon, through rivers, blood, mud, etc., so all that stuff gets trapped in loose hada. The same is true (or at least hypothosized) of iron tsuba that have traces of lacquer on them, that it was placed there to protect it from the elements. The refference sword is an interesting study of all this. First of all, it's *sue* tegai. Second it's osuriage and the lacquer extends all the way through the Nakago. Ubu? Probably was there and judging from the looser hada the hi were installed to remove larger kitae ware. The hi are also oddly located and assymetrical from side to side indicating to me that they were installed for that reason. Again, I don't have a really textbook backing for all this. It's just my thoughts on the matter, but when I hear galloping hooves I assume it's horses and not zebras.

The essential question for hagiri is structural integrity. If, by machiokuri the hagiri can be fully removed, then it is no longer a structural problem. If it cannot be *fully* removed, then it remains a consideration because the hagiri can propogate to a catastrophic failure. How much of a consideration is dependant on how far out of the stress zones the hagiri has been moved. Obviously down at the end of the nakago there's little chance of a problem, but by that time it's pretty much an osuriage job anyway. It is an interesting question though as most folks wouldn't be inclined to look for hagiri on the nakagoha. Heck, could you even see it through patina? The area could be machi okuri'd so that the remaining hagiri was relocated into the nakago area, annealed with a copper block, rewelded, filed, repatinated, and on an especially good sword, that might likely be an acceptable fix to save the blade and it's length. Too many factors for just one answer though, and really it all comes down to the quality of the sword in question.

I've seen this on some sue-koto naginata and yari. It's one way of covering up loose kitae in the bottom of the horimono from exposed core steel. Other than that perhaps it's particular to a period??.

Grey, I collected militaria for about 25 years and I used to see these at gun and militaria shows on occasion as far back in the 1980's. I seem to remember someone telling me that a huge number of them were sold in the Phillippines (or perhaps indonesia?) to the tourist trade there. In antique shops in Los Angeles one could occasionally find them in an umbrella or cane stand, or hanging on the wall of a pawn shop. This p.o.s. has been around quite a while. The willingly uneducated buy all sorts of look alikes. I get emails for "fauxlex" watches everyday. Heck, somebody's gotta be buying them. P.T. Barnum's staple diet was the ignorance of the masses.

The answer to your questions are in two parts; First, learning about the differences in Nihonto is the beginning of a lifetime of study. Your first purchases should not be swords, but rather good books on the subject. Try to attend some shows (even if it means paying some airfare) because getting in front of real Nihonto should "flip the switch" for you. Perhaps look into some of the club organizations and if you are local to one attend one of their regular meetings. There are folks available in these clubs that will be quite helpful. However, spending money on modern production swords, poor quality antiques, or fake swords will *not* educate you in the ways of Nihonto. Spending money with blind enthusiam will only hinder your progress because you won't learn anything about Nihonto and the money will be gone. Second, since Paul Chen's swords are not Nihonto, they are not relevant to this forum which has the mission of discusion pertaining specifically to Nihonto and their fittings. You would get far more information about him on forums such as http://www.swordforum.com where all manner of sword gendre are discussed. For a little background info, Paul Chen's real name is Chen Chao Po, and he owns a factory in Dalian Manchuria, China called Hanwei. Most of the swords made are hand forged but the relative quality levels depend on the particular line and price catagory. Seek the other forums for the reviews and differences, but make no mistake...you cannot learn about Nihonto by purchasing modern production swords or the scores of cheapo fakes being generated on ebay. Oh, and btw, http://www.swordforum.com also requires real names.

I've been kinda scarce lately. Lots of stuff going on with home and work, but I'm still around. Great new look. Rich, you've done an awesome job. I've really enjoyed and appreciated your efforts. Brian, thanks for taking the wheel. Running these boards are not for the faint of heart and take a huge amount of commitment. Many thanks. I guess this makes Brian Sandai now neh? :-)