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Everything posted by Ted Tenold
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Talk about heavy hitters!
Ted Tenold replied to Grey Doffin's topic in Auctions and Online Sales or Sellers
Omnipotence, of course! :-) Wow, what great provinance for the future though! -
Interestingly enough, Harvey Stern once did a bunch of cross sectional studies on sword that were tired or damaged beyond repair. They are a great example of the different constructions used by smiths, and demonstrate the concerns of over polishing and hidden kizu. I photographed them some years back for my library, but I didn't take high resolution images unfortunately. My friend Keith re-shot many of them later in better rez and I believe they're still over on Rich Steins index, but I can't access the page right now for some reason. Here's one that I originally shot. This is Kobuse Kitae construction.
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No, I haven't met them all yet. :-) But devining with some precision that a sword will take x number of polishes in it's life is a bit of a moot statement. We'll never be around to verify it, and if a sword is getting polished that much in a single lifetime, then something is seriously wrong. From a purely logical approach though, I'd offer this; A polish on a sword doesn't always necessarily start from the coarsest stone which removes the greatest amount of metal than any other. Therefore, if the blade were in a state that required starting with one finer (or shall I say *not* as coarse) then more "polishes" could be endured. How many? Well, again, depends on the preservation efforts, the construction of the blade, the skill of the smith in controlling his materials, and the skills of all the polishers throughout the swords existance. Again, I'd offer my Tadayoshi example. They are thin skinned. But how thin and where is it thinnest or thickest on the length of the blade? Sure, a polisher can look at a blade and say, "This sword is very healthy", but the skill of the smith in controlling his materials will decide whether the kawagane is equal throughout the length and breadth of the blades surface. However a shallow spot in the kawagane can't necessarily be seen, though it can be anticipated. In looking at the construction one might see either konuka hada in the shinogiji, or perhaps areas of masame (and/or dull colored steel) drifting down. The former would indicate a healthy kawagane as it hasn't started to fade into the side of the sword with polishing. Masame creeping deeper into the shinogi would indicate that the kawagane is deteriorating. But even if the konuka looks healthy, there could very well be an area that is shallower than the next just waiting to expose shingane despite that konuka in the shinogi. Pardon me for saying so, as I really don't intend to appear argumenative, but your statement is somewhat contradictory in this regard too. A polisher (even a good one) *cannot* predict with any precision how many polishes a sword will take, if they cannot see hidden kizu. Burning through kawagane is literally installing a flaw due to not being able to see how shallow or deep the shingane is in the blade. Sure, assesments can be made on the individual health (or lack of it) of a sword, and therefore an educated Occam's razor type judgement made, but that's for the next polish not the one following that. Hidden is hidden no matter how healthy it looks from the outside. If it was unexpected, it was unpredicted.
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Cursory glance into the books; there is an example in the Osaki Shinto Zufu of a katana of with the Kiku on the ura, but it's in conjunction with the ichi kanji and other inscriptions. Didn't see any other examples though, I didn't dig really deep. There's quite a bit of variation in signatures for the Yoshimichi's even within each generation. This one looks closer to a sandai example, in stroke placement and strength, and the nakago ana placement is pretty good too. The work matching is a good thing too. I wouldn't write it off without a shinsa. A good gimei effort would kinda preclude putting the kiku opposite generally seen extant examples. *shrug*
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I'd actually offer the reverse of this. There's no polisher I've yet met with a crystal ball that can tell how many polishes a blade will tolerate. Polishing is not a wholesale "start with this stone" process, and what will happen to the blade in the future will determine what starting point will be required. Kizu, although I'd agree they cannot be completely predicted, there are blades that "run to kizu" and therefore are a preliminary suspect. Yoshimichi school blades are an example of them. So being able to identify the sword will give the polisher the ability to predict at some level. Also there are techniques for searching for them prior to the polishing process. Identifying construction will point to anticipating (I hesitate to say "predict")possiblities as well. How the kizu are addressed (if possible) is the important factor if they are found.
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The number of polishes is irrelevant to the procedure. One has to always remember that most consider polishing a restoration process, but really it's a conservancy process. It is the job of the polisher to remove only the minimal amount of metal that will preserve the blade and identify it in shape and activity. The invasive nature of the process at most every level has a detrimental effect on the life of the sword. So really it's not how many polishes, but how much invasion will the blade tolerate. And on that level, it doesn't matter how much it will tolerate, the original form of the blade is lessened with each polish as well. So even if it will not become tired by intrusion of the construction (i.e. exposing core steel), it becomes tired in it's keijo, or form, which is the single most important identifier of a swords identity. The original health, dimension of the sword, it's construction method, as well as the skills that the smith had in creating it are the first factor. Swords made in certain construction arrangements will tolerate more invasion. A sword comprised of very good steel throughout the cross section will tolerate more than one of kobuse (hot dog and bun) style constrution. The Rai school is often recognized by the presence of "Rai Jigane" or "Rai Hada" which are areas of looser construction mostly exposed over time in polishing. It's not a derogatory trait though, because the quality of the steel throughout the swords is very high, and it's an acceptable characteristic of the school. However, more healthy Rai's I've seen, such as one I saw that was Tokubetsu Juyo, had none at all, which threw my kantei or it off because it's been drilled into me to look for sporadic looser hada. The Tadayoshi school in Hizen made swords in the Rai style, and the hada is brilliantly done. But it also required very high quality iron (read that as expensive) and was labor intensive to forge to obtain that fine luster, so the conservation of that material meant that they made the kawagane very very thin. Hizen blades are therefore notoriously "thin skinned" and even one stone can burn through it. Therefore, the next factor is the skill and knowledge of the polisher, and EVERY polisher that ever touched the blade previously. He must be able to identify the sword and then accordingly he must be able to see any problems in shape, health, construction, flaws, and correct, repair, and implement a plan for restoration. No small task given the conditon that some swords arrive in. Is it a Rai, or a Tadayoshi? If it's a Rai, whose? What period? What region? Yamashiro? Nakajima? Believe me, that's the short list of questions. In some cases he may leave problems if correcting them will compromise the blade in such a way that removing/correcting will be worse than just leaving it. The skills, or lack thereof, of those that worked on it everytime before are critical. Bad decisions or improper methods cannot always be corrected. So again, it comes down to being as least invasive as possible. Some make good decisions, some bad. Either way the blade suffers, just not as much in the former as the latter. The process can be fatal in the first or the twentieth polish. A good polisher might even turn down polishing a sword if he thinks that even in the most conservative of efforts, the blade will be fatally altered. Last, and influencial on the polishers abilities, is the *preservation* of the blade. How extensively has it been used? Was is used in combat? How much? Carried only on special occasions? Stored in an armory? Buried in a back yard? Left on a wall and forgotten? A good polish on a sword can last well into a century or more if maintained, handled, and stored prudently. That negates any subsequent need for more invasion through polishing, and makes it much less invasive when it finally does become necessary. Swords that have been preserved to the utmost degree can stand in oppostion to what we normally *imagine* them to be because we see comparible examples that have not been as deftly or skillfully maintained. Seeing swords from the Heian and Kamakura period that are as large (or larger) than many gendaito and shisakuto is a stunning reality check on what preservation and conservancy can accomplish.
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Is it just me or does this kozuka look too.....cartoonish? It has kind of a comic book look to it to me, and just doesn't carry the flavor of typical Japanese sculpting. Just strikes me as odd.
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What should I do with the nakago of newly made sword?
Ted Tenold replied to Nobody's topic in Nihonto
I'd offer that the real goal is to prevent "preventable" corrosion and maintain the sword as a whole, not just the polished surfaces. Steel will do as it will over time. Handling will obviously promote the nakago to take on staining or even growing rust. The key is that the maintenance of the sword is to lengthen it's life. Many collectors oil old nakagos as well in an effort to not only keep new rust from starting, but to also protect the patina that has already come from centuries of age. Not all do it though, so like everything in Nihonto, there's no hardfast rule. The nakago being no less a part of the studiable parts of the whole sword, it should not be neglected, and effort to maintain it should be made in the interest of lengthening it's life. Who wouldn't want to see magnificent examples of old swords when they were received by the original owner? What could be learned from them? Below is an example of a sword that displays a nearly pristine nakago. You will note that the mei dates this work to November of 1859. This is an absolutely genuine sword with no doubts as to it's provinance. It is a family heirloom that arrived in the U.S. shortly after it was made. When I first saw this sword, I thought it was a gendaito until I read the signature, then I thought it was gimei until I learned it's provinance. The actual blade had some condition issues and it was subsequently repolished......only the second time it had ever been touched on stones. The main reason for it's conditon was that the nakago remained reletively untouched for literally decades with the rest of the blade had been examined. I'm not sure the shiratsuka had ever been removed from the sword until I saw it. It resided (and still does) in a dry climate. If oiling and wiping promotes the conditional life of the nakago, it's to at least hinder or offset the effect of handling. If the sword is left untouched and in an optimal climate it will maintain as conditions allow. Humidity, ambient temperature and environment will vary of course. I believe that if a sword is maintained, it should be reasonably maintained in it's *entirety* *depending* on the particular demands of those conditions of environment and handling. I think we can all make a judgement between preservation and neglect. If prudent maintenance of the nakago shows that it still is turning color, staining, etc., that to me would just be the natural "tincture of time" that is happening and trying to correct that would then fall into the alteration catagory. One certainly should be careful about wanting to see new things "age". Let's face it, we'll never get to see a new sword's nakago with that lovely velvety patina it will have in 700 years, any more than we'll see a pristine patina free Awataguchi Hisayuki nakago the day it left the forge. I guess what I'd say is; let time work, but try not to interfere with it by either maintaining when not needed or neglecting maintainance when prudent. -
I see three characters on the omote. Looks like Ko da suke. I think Moriyama-san is correct. The signature doesn't seem right and the nakago is not very skilled. The date also neglects to denote *which* mizunoto u era. Each sign occurs every sixty years but to the era needs to be known in conjunction with the sign to pinpoint the exact year.
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Your tremendous efforts have been a great help to so many people and will always be appreciated. Rest up and best wishes for a quick return to health and happiness. Cheers, Ted
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Looks more like "Iyehisa" to me. I checked the Kinko Meikan there is one but he's of Umetada lineage and given the Higo"ness" of this set that's not where I'd go. I checked Haynes and there are nine listed artists named Iyehisa. One of the things that struck me interesting about your set is the silver hirazogan on it which is not a real common zogan (at least as a dominant color) especially among Higo works I've seen. So, in Haynes there's an interesting note on two of the listed Iyehisa from Kaga province (Kashu Komatsu); "Did silver hirazogan on both tsuba and abumi". Looking at your set, this makes a lot of sense to me resembling that work style. Silver zogan on abumi is quite common. Looks like a nice set.
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Japanese Swords of the Bizen Tradition available for all...
Ted Tenold replied to Darcy's topic in Nihonto
Yeah, that is funny. So, I'm guessing that there's a "Party Pups" book that morphs into Nihonto on page 19...........at which point they get a bedtime story starts with Darcy's commentary and goes right into Ko-Bizen Masatsune. Yeah ! Bring 'em up right!! :-) On the other hand some poor devestated child may never know what happens in the end of that "Hairy Christmas"! *sniff, sniff* :-) -
Moriyama-san, It is my belief they are different smiths, though they may very well have been the same age. The fundamental differences in the signatures of Fujiwara Hisayuki and those of Kawaii Hisayuki are too consistant for me to believe otherwise. Looking at Eduardo's example and comparing it to that of the Fujiwara Hisayuki you linked, shows the consistancy between them, yet also the difference to the Kawaii example. The most outstanding is the way the "yuki" is struck with the two nicks crossing the uppermost horizontal on Fujiwara's examples but floating above it on Kawaii examples. This feature of Kawaii work is consistant with the known signatures I've looked up. Also, I have a katana in my possession by Kawaii Hisayuki dated 1858 and the signature is consistant with the one you linked made in 1863. Interesting coincidence of names though.
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Eduardo, It is indeed a "Ken" style tanto in it's current mounting. The signature translates to "Fujiwara Hisayuki Saku". The first impression that I got was that it was a shortened yari (spear), because of the odd shape of the nakago at the blade transition, the mekugiana being cut right into the signature, and the fact that the signature is so close to the bottom of the nakago suggests the nakago was much longer. I looked up the smith and discovered that he is noted for making spears, so this confirms my suspicions of the blade having been reshaped for remounting into a tanto. The mounts are quite interesting and at a first glance because of the number of fakes coming out these days, one might conclude that they are newer or of chinese origins. However I believe this is an example of mounts that were made to accomodate the kind of wear Western attire might require after the Meiji restoration and westernization that Japan experienced in the later half of the 19th century, or perhaps for attaching to something such at a military back pack or saddle. It appears to me to be an example of utilizing a blade that would not have been practical (or legal) in Meiji Era Japan in it's original form of a spear. The mounts appear to be in pretty good condition. The sword blade could use a professional polish. The odd nature of the mounts makes for a good candidate for preservation as a transitional period example. There is another prominant Shinshinto smith named Kawaii Hisayuki from Edo, that also used the same kanji for "yuki" and was also noted for making Yari and Jumonji Yari. I am quite familiar with this smiths works and didn't remember him ever using "fujiwara" in signing blades. So out of academic curiosity, I looked at several known examples in my library and in personal records, he did not sign with fujiwara, and the signature styles are different so this confirms that it is the Hisayuki from Sagami, not the more famous Kawaii Hisayuki from Edo.
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Mark, The third and forth characters look like they mean that Kawaguchi-san wrote the sayagaki in his advanced age. The third character looks to be the shoso variant of "chin" which loosely refers to advanced age. The fourth character of is "shiki-su" meaning "written by". I'd defer to those more knowledgeable in these characters, but by my references, this is their likely translation. Danny Massey has an article on his site referring to a Kawaguchi Noboru of the Japanese Sword Academic Society. The time frame of 1937 would be about right, so perhaps this is your man? Just thoughts.
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Just up on Andy Quirt's site; a Nidai Muramasa. Seen it in person, and despite the tateware, it is a nice blade and a great example of the much talked about school and it's history. Should get the Shogun shakin' in his tabi. :-) http://www.nihonto.us/MURAMASA%20TANTO%20-%20NIDAI.htm So refreshing to acutally see a real one offered on the net for a change instead of an uberhyped multi-flogged retempered one.
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Great choice of both sword and dealer. Fred is a great guy and a person you can deal with complete confidence. He's very involved with the Northern California Japanese Sword Club and if you're not a member, you should seriously consider it. The regular newletter is excellent and the their annual sword show in San Francisco every August is *not* to be missed. Now that you have some nice study material, keep that education going.
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Hishu is also Higo province. The character "Uji" is heavily used in the Ujifusa and Ujisada lines of Owari and Osumi groups working in the Mino style and there was a great deal of confluence of smiths from Owari, Osumi, Higo, Mikawa, and Satsuma. The eighth generation of which I had a katana by, was originally from Kumamoto (Higo) and trained with Hoki no kami Masayoshi, one of the two leading Satsuma smiths, the other being Motohira. He's listed in Hawley's as being a Satsuma smith, but with a note "from Higo", a given name of Takei Sadayoshi and being part of the Masayoshi school. There were eight generations of Ujisada with the first (Izumo no kami Ujisada) the creator of the Juyo Bijutsuhin "Ikkoku Ujisada". This school is gathered in the Ganmaku school of the Mino tradition. Izumo no kami Ujisada, the shodai, was the brother of Wakasa no kami Ujifusa, and they the sons of Seki Kanefusa. Hawley's lists an Ujisada, from Higo, signing "Hishu Kumamoto ju Ujisada, working about 1781-1789, so I'd venture this is your guy and likely follows the same kind of pathways of originating in Higo, but then migrating into either Osumi, Owari, Satsuma, or perhaps all of them. The ebb and flow of these Mino guys makes tracing any one line very difficult, and even when they get papered, many times it doesn't document the generation or period. If it were in polish the work might also point to a little more clear identification. The Ganmaku followed the "Kanefusa Ha" also called "Kenbo Midare" style of hamon, while the Satsuma smiths worked toward the Shizu Kaneuji style. Some like the eighth generation worked in both with their cross training. Tough to nail it down much more than this. Hope it helps. *Edit* I realized this morning that I put the Tadayoshi school in Higo. Whoops, don't know where that came from... Hizen is Tadayoshi, sorry for the geographic misplacement. Most embarassing...
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Chicago Shinsa
Ted Tenold replied to sencho's topic in Sword Shows, Events, Community News and Legislation Issues
The reality of it is that the show had to commit to a *minimum* amount of room nights that the show would bring in, but there was no maximum amount or limit set by the hotel initially. It was arranged as an open ended amount past the minimum as was done in past years. Marc's contact at the hotel assured him that the rate would be held until the March 31st deadline without a cap based on the past history of the show and how many rooms were reserved therein. The hotel changed it's position a several days ago that they would not continue to book rooms under the rate. So there wasn't supposed to be a maximum number to sell out of, only a date at which the show rate would expire. That's why the date is on the show flyer. This is purely a hotel managment decision and they will not budge from it despite prior show history or arrangements. Marc contacted another hotel about three miles away to try and make some kind of ancilliary arrangements for folks, but obviously it'll involve a cab ride to/from the show site, and it's not clear how much that'll cost. However he asked me to post it here if folks would like to look into it as an option; The Chicago Schaumberg Marriot 50 Martingale Phone (800)228-9290 Single Room $89.00 Double $99.00 (BUT, this is for a King bed with a rollaway, they have no "two" bed rooms available) As Milt said the $129.00 is in the neighborhood of other shows, and with a cab ride to save $30.00 per night at the Schaumberg Marriot, the benefits are up to the individual to judge. For those that are driving to the show, it might make more sense than to those that are flying in. Again, I'd encourage folks to contact Marc directly if they need more info on accomodations or shinsa. -
Chicago Shinsa
Ted Tenold replied to sencho's topic in Sword Shows, Events, Community News and Legislation Issues
Pete, et al., Technically the rooms are not sold out. There are rooms available, but the hotel made a unilateral decision to waive the show rate availibility until the March 31st date contrary to prior agreement. This has created a huge problem for Marc and Stuart which they are dealing with the best they can. So.. In speaking with Marc, he relayed to me that there have been ancilliary arrangements made to help the situation. Contact him directly via email so he can advise you of the arrangements at: ichimonji7@sbcglobal.net These guys are making huge efforts to bring everyone a good show, and this hotel situation really put a bind on them. I would also advise folks to keep their tempers in check with the hotel for the sake of the show. Cutting loose on the hotel won't make the situation any better, won't force them to grant the show room rated, and will likely just create more issues for Marc and Stuart at this point. -
Hi All, Just settled in for a nice cup of coffee on a relaxing Sunday morning. The compatible wood subject pops up on occasion. One of the things most folks overlook or don't realize is that Honoki (Magnonila Obivata, or Magnolia Hypoleuca) has a natural wax in it's structure. Using a bit of sandpaper on a piece of Honoki almost immediately clogs the paper. This makes the wood very ammenable for protecting the sword from humidity as well as a very good base for lacquerwork. The quality of the wood also depends on the particular region of Japan it was harvested because this dictates density and color as well. Some Honoki looks very white while others have a green cast to them. Many might be familiar with the very attractive golden brown "tiger stripes" that some Honoki can have which have a very opalescent shimmer to them when finished correctly by the sayashi. One will see these most generally on excellent shirasaya with qualitative blades. Obviously the lesser quality ones are used for lacquerwork (or the liners of steel/aluminum gunto saya) as the grain won't be visable anyway. As was mentioned above, Honoki is cured for many years to provide stability and remove excess moisture from the structure. The stability issue is obviously another important consideration for accurate fitting of the blade. If it warps the blade will rub or not fit at all. Kiln dried woods can be more suceptable to this, depending on how fresh from the kiln they are. There are many considerations for using wood for direct contact with the sword blade of which many harder structured woods just aren't suitable. Woods like Maple, Walnut, Cherry and other very durable woods are difficult to carve and because of their dense structure are very rough on the finish of the sword, and they are often very irregular in grain. Oak is straighter, but is also very hard and has an open grain structure that traps crud. Any woods like this are likely to abrade the polish and also be very noisey on the draw. Carving them accurately is difficult so rattling is easy to introduce. Exotics woods can have natural chemistry that protects them from environmental threats such as pests that make them highly corrosive to steel, so yet another issue to watch out for. I have seen period examples of swords using exotic woods on saya for their beauty. One example was a Shikkake Norinaga tanto with a lovely wood (supposedly now extinct) from the area of Vietnam that looks like a cross between ironwood and rosewood. However it was an "irekozaya" which incorporates a removeable sleeve of Honoki to protect the blade from contact of the extremely hard wood. When pulled out it was hinged to easily split apart for cleaning, and a poem was written upon the outside of the sleeve. I've also seen the same thing done with saya of extremely high quality lacquerwork that allows the saya to be cleaned easily to preserve the lacquer work which would otherwise be destroyed or discarded when the saya interior became too dirty to use. Honoki of any quality is getting harder to obtain and for a lot of swords including swords for practitioners, contemporary works, and lower quality antique swords using good stock is a bit of a waste of the materials. In these cases, Alder is about the best comparable stock we have here in the US for sword mountings I have found. It is closegrained, fairly dense, strong, and carvable. Eventhough it's all pretty much kiln dried, it's generally stable enough off the rack as well. Clear stock is getting harder to find though as with all decent woods. Basswood works, but it is very very soft and absorbs a ton of oil, so over oiling could exacerbate interior swelling/pinching of the sword blade. I'd vote against that one. It also is very soft, and will dent practically looking at it. Poplar (or American Tulipwood) is decent strenght, good for carving, and lower in shrikage than Alder or Basswood. It's color is also widely varied in whites, yellow, green, and brown, and has black spots, green areas, so for exposed wood it wouldn't look nice, but lacquered over no problem. It is light though and will dent easier than Alder, but not as easily as Bass. In the US, Yellow Cucumber Tree (Magnolia Acuminata) might be one to look at, though I've never personally used it. It has properties better than Alder in most catagories and is fairly plentiful on the east coast. It is close to all specs between Alder, Poplar (Tulipwood), and although I don't have written specs on Honoki, likely is very similar there by default of species. Hope this helps.
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The ones that make you go OUCH!
Ted Tenold replied to Stephen's topic in General Nihonto Related Discussion
Perhaps the two developed irreconcilable differences and they divorced their friendship, each taking half of the assets. :-) -
Ono-san's work is amazing. I've seen two of his Yamatorige copies and they are stunning. Keith and I have the first sword in that book listed on Modern Tosho, and the 13th still has images in our gallery though it was sold a while back. Don't know if they'll load faster for the d/u folks, but they're not acrobat files so have a look. http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/mai ... _itemId=29 The Kobizen (sword number 1) is absolutely beautiful with a gorgeous jigane and utsuri. http://www.moderntosho.com/sale/YoshimitsuOno.html Also here's a link so some of his kogatana as well. http://www.moderntosho.com/gallery2/mai ... _itemId=79 I don't want to appear to step on the post commercially as much as to offer everyone some other color photos of his works for viewing. My apologies in advance if it seems otherwise.
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online exhibition: History Of Steel In Eastern Asia
Ted Tenold replied to Guido's topic in General Nihonto Related Discussion
Could be the other way though. The guy might've come in and said; "Doctor, I think I need a long.......slow,......root canal." Might as well accomodate him. :-) Feed him Seymour! -
Here is a good article about Kesho-migaki by Dr. S. A. Takeuchi, who also has some other good articles regarding polishing on his site. http://www2.una.edu/Takeuchi/DrT_Jpn_Cu ... migaki.htm The variations in kesho-migaki are pretty broad. I've seen any where from no nagashi to eleven. I've seen some patterns that have wider interspersed with thinner ones, solid with dashed, wood burls, kaos with lines, kaos without lines, and then when looking at yari you see the stepping patterns where burnishing in the neck is stopped in a transition into the ji. Primarily, these are stylistic approaches and a result of one's training. Referring to the number, pattern, or accuracy of the lines to assess the quality of the blade is akin to judging the quality of the steak by the garnish on top. A polisher of high rank will polish swords that are of a quality he is competant and willing to polish. The very nature of the sword and the polish performed will define the quality of the sword. The sword will be viewed most times without even removing the tsuka and habaki and to do so without permission is a pretty serious transgression of etiquette. So the kesho-migaki would not be visible for judgement under that scenario. If I remember correctly, nagashi is a term close to "washing away". Stopping the migaki (burnishing) abruptly leaves a somewhat unfinished appearance to the finished work. So, the decorative lines serve much the same aesthetic as yasurimei on a sword's nakago. It's a nice way of completing a fine work. Curran, I can't really agree with you on the barcoding thing being a determination of time done, etc.. I think polishers remember the sword for the work and not the number or arrangement of lines. Fun if you think about it though. Makes me wonder what the price would be when scanned; *bleep* "That'll be $72,000.00 please" :-) They're sometimes referred to as a signature, and I can agree with that somewhat. They are quite difficult to do well and the more accurately placed, uniform, and consistant they are demonstrates the capacity of a polishers skill, experience, and patience. It would be an interesting study to document some of the variations for reference, like the one Curran mentioned in the horimono.