Ted Tenold

James, I know there is a bit of humor intended in your statement, but to be frank and honest; If you are truely not sure, then you sent it to the wrong person regardless. Best to find out in advance. Just gentle advice, with no assumptions or accusations intended on my part.

Submitting it to a shinsa would be possible and a good for getting a qualified opinion on the blade. I would highly recommend that the nakago and polish get corrected before doing it, and that means and investment in money and time.

Gettin' sentimental, eh Franco? :lol: I have no idea if he was a lefty. Seems a bit of long shot. Hidari Mutsu Kaneyasu signed in mirror image though I don't think that necessarily made him a lefty either. It doesn't give me that impression, and although not impossible, I'd have to say highly improbable. It does maintain a rather straight plane which in relation to the curvature migrates it over the shinogi. Maybe that's what your seeing?

Yup, mune is the top one. No idea what the lower one is though...

Will do Stephen. Because it's an item for sale, I'll post the link in the For Sale forum, just to keep the threads righteous. Look for it there.

Agreed, but that little nubby bit at the end of the nakago still suggests damage or shortening, or both. Maybe a bad Saidan mei or Zogan mei was removed, either of which would require some major reworking. That would help explain the filing, the surface texturing, and the crusty nature of the patina. Just thoughts. Truth is, without having it in hand we can only take it for what is obvious and that it has been reworked to some degree whether more or less.

Mark, Your enthusiasm is admirable as is your prudence in asking about things before rushing in. Let me also offer this to you: http://www.nbthk-ab.org/articles/Gentle-Advice.pdf Take your time, or as I was once told...."make haste, slowly". :lol:

Koichi-san and Guido-san, Thank you both very much for the help. The "shi" kanji I thought to be "shoku". Couldn't imagine what a sword had to do with gardens full of turtles and cranes. :lol: Carlo, Yes, it is a nice sword. It will be up on my site soon. A client sent it to me to offer on consignment. I wanted to be sure the translation was correct for my description. Sakurai (Manji) Masatsugu was one of the more important and well thought of Gendai smiths because he was one of the few that continued to work making swords through the difficult years of the Meiji and Taisho eras. His son, Sakurai Masayuki established a forge at Ritsumeikan University in Kyoto and was the teacher of Sumitani Seiho (Masamine) who was himself eventually elevated to Ningen Kokuho. Masatsugu was the student of Katayama Munetsugu's son, Hirotsugu. Here's the omote of the Nakago...

This is the uramei on a very nice Manji Masatsugu Katana, and although I've translated most of it, my skills are questionable and the context is odd to me. Hono X? Shoku Miya Iwa Ki(?) Tsuru Kame. Any help is much appreciated. Thank you in advance!

Age doesn't necessarily dictate quality. I've seen some really *really* nice Uda swords. Then again, I've seen others that would be a fair cure for insomnia. For a Koto sword, in okay polish, mounted, and papered, I think it's a fair price and a good starter blade. Then again....the currency of your national origin could change that rapidly (and daily :lol: ) too. As for Muramasa? To each their own I guess, but I've never been a big fan. Seen a fair number in hand and studied them accordingly, but I wouldn't run out looking for one to add to my collection. They always seem to command a big price, bigger than I'd pay considering the options I'd have in the price catagory. That's just me though. The privelidge of owning something "forbidden" has a premium attached. I'd rather have a nice Heianjyo Nagayoshi.

Same as everybody else Henry........ six matching numbers on a lottery ticket!!!!!!! (and just for emphasis...!!!!!!!!!!) :lol:

John, Just to clarify....that's Rich Stein's site.

Adrian, Congratulations! Glad to hear you not only survived, but it went off well. Events like that are a testiment to the hard work and determination of folks such as yourself. We'll look forward to hearing more about it after you've recovered. Enjoy a short pour and a pillow.

There's a difference between a craftsman and an artist. As Jean stated, an artist has an element of individual creativity that surpasses just employing techiniques for making an object. Kajihei made a living creating not just signatures, but *works* that are difficult to detect not only in the mei, but in the work as well. The mei was the icing on the cake that sold the work as an original. So in this respect, I would offer that he was an artist in that his works are so good that they were (and still can be) very difficult to distinquish. Add the fact that he worked very competantly in the diversity of style and that solidifies his prowess. A craftsman knows what he's making when he makes it, but an artist, to a lesser extent, relies also on someone else's interpretations of the work to identify it. So if it's taken as an original by someone else, I think that says something. Arguably, this kind of discussion borders on the "art is in the eye of the beholder" debate that's timeless and endless. In the art world there are many examples of fakes that were so good they fooled the best of the best, and some are even *collected* as such great copies to the point that the fakes are in short supply and copies of the fakes are appearing. I offer this aritcle: http://www.numismaticnews.net/article/G ... llectible/ Remember, these works are not just gimei, they are gisaku; made as counterfeits. Counterfeiters by nature are ambitious and a bit arrogant. So placing a little "catch-me-if you-can" is their form of signature. Utsushimono on the other hand are re-creations of a work by a smith as a nod of respect and admiration, and not made in an effort to decieve. There may be some alteration afterward that changes that such as aging, removing or adding mei, or other treatment. Utsushi made to decieve are therefore gisaku. It's all about intent.

Thanks for posting this exercise Reinhard. It was enjoyable to see all the different thoughts on these. I sat on the sidelines as these were also covered in a lecture Tanobe-sensei gave at the Tampa Florida show a few years back, and these exact points are illustrated in a book from that lecture. Good efforts and thoughts from everyone though. It certainly does have a way of challenging the approaches to judgements!

Justin, It really is difficult to say from images sometimes. Just to poke at the images I would say this; Looks Osuriage to me with the nakago elluding to some koshizori. The yakiba does look to extend past the machi and into the nakago supporting the fact the sword has been shortened to some extent. The nakago patina is wrong and looks contrived, with the very edge of the sabigawa (rust border) showing kiri yasuri and then some filing strokes angling off into the habakimoto (area the habaki occupies). This tells me the blade was somewhat recently shortened or modified and the rust installed to age it. But this rust is very "caked" and inorganic looking giving an impression of being very forced and accelerated. The end of the nakago has a little extension at the mune side. This appears to be a remnant of having been partially sawn through then snapped off. The hamon is Bizen inspired and has some few square cut gunome which harken back to the Kamakura period, however there is no utsuri visable from the images and the hada is also unable to be conclusively identified, which could be the product of conditional issues, the state of polish, or the polishing method used. The appearance of the polish is suspiciously odd to me and may have involved a mild etchant. All this really hinders the ability to make confident assessments of your sword. In hand it might be more obvious or conclusive, but even in hand because of the shape, state of polish, and condition of nakago you might get ten different answers from ten different people.

Javi, It really depends on what you mean by "good". It is a Seki Arsenal made WWII Imperial Japanese Army Sidearm. In that respect, it looks to be in great condition, signed, mounted and looks "good". However, because it is not of traditional material or manufacture, it is not what we would say is within the context of Nihonto, and therefore as Winston Smith (of George Orwell's "1984") would say; It is "ungood". :lol:

I think what your images show is iron patina. From those I've seen and owned with traces of lacquer, it tends to remain in recesses rather than high points. Wow, this thread originated in '07. Quite a thread resurrection there Andreas! :lol:

Ford, No apology necessary. Examining the temperment with which threads usually go astray, this one is the prime example of a constructive and optimal manner. The contributions by yourself and others have built an excellent topic. I just didn't want Marc to feel as if his tsuba got left behind. Despite the questionable nature of the mei, the work is very nice and that was really the impetus of my comment. I agree that the discussion on Natsuo could be moved to a dedicated thread, but I would not want to interrupt the flow at this point if Marc doesn't feel slighted. If he so desires, then we'll happily dedicate a thread to Natsuo.

A completely interesting and enjoyable thread, worthy of full exploration but with respect, we've drifted a bit from Marc's first post about what might be thought of his tsuba. So to touch back back a bit on his tsuba; does anyone perhaps have any thoughts on it's true origins? I get the impression of perhaps a Mito school work.

RERMAN, I have merged your two topics into one. Better to keep adding posts about the sword than more topics. Please sign your posts with your name per forum rules. You can add it to your signature in your profile if you like.

:lol: Yes, Jean, I guess you are correct..... I cannot dispute this involvment. Our internet service is sporadic right now, so I am writing somewhat quickly to take advantage of little windows of opportunity. Forgive my repetitiveness. Duely noted, and edited.

I'd agree with the concensus here, and Clive makes a good point that curvature can occasionally be misleading (or perhaps even leading ). Sori, along with other elements of measurement are a matter of period, school, condition, etc.. Conditionally speaking, sori can be altered as in the case of Naginata/Nagamaki Naoshi, or in tanto where polishing or repair can drastically alter the sori from musori to uchizori. What shallow sori would be in some periods would be considered deep in others. Kanbun period is generally regarded as being a rather straightish looking sori, though completely straight blades are fairly uncommon, therefore deeper sori for that period would be considered shallow in other periods, but does that make a Kanbun period sword with musori a "shallow sori" for Kanbun?? :lol: In the end, it goes back to the very first thing we should all try to identify in a sword, and that is the period, and although sori is a good indicator, it's really only part of the entire shape, and there's other shape elements combined with the sori that provide markers to the answer. When the period is identified as a combination of shape elements, then sori can be somewhat re-evaluated for that period in particular. Just my thouhts.

Although I am not intricately involved in this craft, I realize the process is intricate due to the nature of the work. Given those processes and the time required, I think that this production number speaks another set of volumes to the skills Natsuo and his "team" possessed. The ability to create such works, as well as produce them skillfully in these number is facinating to me. Basic arithmatic shows this as about one work every 7 or 8 days, and that is based on a straight 365 days...no days off for inspirational study, meetings with clients, recording and design, travel, rest, recreation, etc.. Facinating artist and excellent information. I've learned quite a bit from this thread, thank you!

With Katana, the placement can be dictated by the particular Ryuha (school) as well. The style and placement of the kurigata for Jigen Ryu practitioners is different than those of say the Kashima schools. Much if this is because of technical differences in execution of Nukiuchi and Noto (drawing and re-sheating) of the sword, and/or the usage and placement of the saya during, or in conjunction with, the use of the sword. By and large, these are incrimental in the range that James and Ford mentioned.