Ted Tenold

Heck, why not just throw all accountability out the window and start allowing the complete use of handles and no real names? I'll take SuperstarMusashiSensei. Anonymity is great when you want freedom from the shackles of posterity and consequences. Or why not allow cuss words and porn links too? Whether it's one post or a forum full of them, it all boils down to credibility and integrity. I agree that what is posted on a forum is much like speaking in public; don't say what you don't want commited to posterity. Like Guido said, a user can edit their posts but deleting them altogether isn't necessary. There's two sides to every case and the facts aren't always apparent to those not directly involved. Words like "tribunal" and "assaulted" are pretty strong in the face of the understanding and patience the mods have demonstrated with many folks in the past, not just Shan. This forum, like every other, is voluntary, not mandatory. But make no mistake, while it's not a dictatorship, it's also no democracy. We'd rather leave people to their own words, and then let them stand by them. If anyone finds participation uncomfortable here, or the mods too Draconian, they are welcome to exercise their index finger and browse some other place.

Interesting story. The blade resembles Chikuzen Nobukuni school.

These look like water spots. Water can cause etching rather quickly depending on the concentration of disolved solids it contains. Municipal water supply can have a rather large concentration of calcium salts which can cause this light etching that looks very similar to the spittle marks you mentioned. Once the surface is etched, there's little chance that uchiko will remove them. It's just not abrasive enough. I think it's safe to say these aren't metallurgical issues. They do remind me of a Showato I saw a long time ago with a rather peculiar yakiba. There were numerous round spots inside the yakiba. There was no doubt they were a product of the heat treating because they were nioi with brightness just less than that of the habuchi. They looked like perfectly round yo. Very strange. The only conclusion I could come to was that bubbles formed on the surface during the quench each one forming a small semi-insulator that affected martinsitic formations. They were different looking than your pictures show though and they were only in the yakiba so I don't think this is the same thing.

Their equal appearance and character in both the yakiba and the ji suggests some form of lightly etched pattern on the surface and not metallurgical activity.

Mantis are very cool indeed. Ken, your Mantis Sanctuary is bulging at the seams already, and I fear you may be hunting them to extinction! There need to be some left to the wild! Anyway....this thread hath drifted methinks.

That's good news Brett. The seller is to be commended for refunding your money without making trouble. Here's a link to an article I wrote. Please have a look at it and keep it in mind for the future. I hope it helps. http://www.nbthk-ab.org/articles/Gentle-Advice.pdf

The Minatogawa smiths made swords exclusively for the IJN. However Herman Wallinga noted in his publication "Gendaito Made at the Minatogawa Shrine" that there were examples of a Minatogawa blade in IJA mounts seen, presumeably carried by a member of the Imperial Naval Landing Forces. Conversely, there have been found Yasukuni blades (Yasukuni forged for Army forces) in Navy mounts as well. The only Minatogawa swords I have seen were in Navy mountings so if you find one it is likely to be in Kaigunto koshirae. There were only six active smiths and their students/assistants at the Minatogawa forge. The production numbers were thus lower than the Yasukuni shrine which had a larger base of working smiths. When you consider that the majority of that lower body of work the Minatogawa production is at the bottom of the Pacific, the surviving examples are going to be disproportionate to Yasukuni blades which had a larger body of work carried by land borne forces.

Doesn't look repro to me. The central post around the square tabs has been removed. The two outer "mounds" once housed pins (or rivet stems) which were likely used for attaching this into a tobacco pouch ornament, or perhaps to a broach or other jewelry which was the fate of many kodogu during the meiji era. Whatever conversion it may have been, it was once one of a pair of menuki and the center post could have been removed to augment the conversion, or been ripped out before being mounted onto a tsuka. The quality looks average to me. Not crappy, but not exquisite.

Grey is right. Let's not get Lori in too deep here. If the habaki will not come loose then leave it. I do not encourage any tapping or impact on the habaki. This can lead to a broken hamachi on the blade if the impact is done in the wrong direction, as well as damage to the habaki. Heat is also a very touchy subject and can lead to a number of other unfixable problems. Lori, the best way for us to help you further is to try to get some clearer images. However even they may be of limited value, because the condition of the blade's finish is not sufficient to show details of the work that are vital to determining it's quality and/or origins. Only an in hand evaluation by a knowledgable person can do this. The images are mearly a good first step in determining if it needs to advance to that step, or find it is an arsenal made blade that would not warrant further steps in appraisal or restoration procedures. Let's omit any tools from the process from here on out............well, except a camera.

I also agree the seppadai looks too small, and what stands out to my eye is that it also appears to be off center, looking somewhat wieghted to the bottom of the composition and warping the imagery. The color of the patina, though not bad looking, seems to lack the taste of time one would expect to see.

Okay guys, let's just agree to disagree on this, yes? Is it possible that it is both? I believe so. Can a sword not cut and thrust? Yes, it does as they are designed for both tasks, though more for cutting than thrusting but still a thrusting weapon none the less. If one looks at swords throughout the world there are overwhelming examples of guards or even minimal "bolsters" to create a tactile reference point and various protections. The glass is neither half full nor half empty on this matter........it is twice as big as it needs to be. It's easy enough to say that there are swords with them and swords without them. Aikuchi are sans tsuba leaving no protection against either slipping or striking, Hamidashi have a minimal tsuba that would not protect the hands very much. Loosing the weapon altogether is not out of the question; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b_P879E ... re=channel In the above link one can see how a wrist lanyard would have helped the sword attached to the swordsman. :lol: The holes in the tsuba were called Udenukiana, and like many things, they eventually became more a decorative legacy than a useful feature. So, to address the topic; I have seen a couple rare examples of tsuba damaged by cuts, and one actually was shot with a musket ball. I think there was some theory that they were occasionally tested by the makers, which might explain the area of the cut being in a place that would be unlikely to be struck during combat. I once saw an example I am convinced was inflicted during combat, demonstrated a cut in a location very likely to be struck, but also a distortion of the metal adjacent to the nakago ana showing the tsuba absorbed the shock against the nakago. Very interesting and convincing example. When is comes to seeing few examples of kirikomi on tsuba, the maxims of Japanese combat are movement based, not attrition based. Avoiding the enemy is much better than slugging it out with your equipment.

I disagree to a greater extent. The world is full of folks that throw tons of money at the things they enjoy, some of which I see and can only shake my head in disbelief. I watched a guy blaze past me in a souped up Honda yesterday. He must have had $10k worth of crap bolted to a beat up rusted body and patchwork paint and primer, speeding along on brand new alloy wheels with bald tires. He obviously found the money to buy what he wanted.........whatever the hell good it was for, because the car wasn't worth a plug nickle to me. For the money he had wrapped up in it, he could probably had a very nice older BMW in great shape that would drive better than the fiberglass wrapped P.O.S. he seemed so proud of. Well, that depends on how good a sword you get for the money Henry. :lol: This art is NO different than any other gendre of interest or collecting. Art has always had this influence, and predators will prey on the uninitiated, uniformed, and foolhardy who's enthusiasm sets them up for disaster. But I'll also add that good swords have always been expensive and it didn't take a dealer getting inbetween to make that price high. Kotetsu charged a *lot* of money for his swords, as did other top smiths of their day. It's no different today either. A copy of the Yamatorige by Ono Yoshimitsu will set you back well over $60,000.00. Even if you find a Mukansa work on the secondary market, they can reach Juyo prices. Where your statement starts to have a bit more impact is when a dealer sells an obviously low end piece for lofty prices. Then it's causing the ruination of the gendre. I remember a militaria collector from years ago commenting "sheep were for shearing". I never did any business with the guy after I heard that. As far as I was concerned, he considered the market a target range and I had no desire to support his mission.

Torokusho is just a licensing process. Those that issue them are not shinsa judges. Arsenal markings would be the first thing they'd look for and a lack of them would leave a pretty subjective judgement. Again though, the sword may look completely different in hand. Doubtful. It looks original length. Trying to justify anything else becomes wishful thinking at some point. :lol:

No, I have not seen any that have any mark other than what the SMR factory placed on them. There is an assembly number stamped on the nakago mune, the SMR logo with date (on early production) or the standardized "Koaisshin Mantetsu Saku" inscription with date.

I'm not convinced this is a hand forged blade. It would take more than just these images to define it, but most hand forged blades will have more attentive finishing of the nakago. Smiths are a pretty methodical breed that believe finishing a sword means finishing the nakago as well. Doesn't mean it's not water quenched either hand forged or not though. I'd also say that industrially produced monosteels when highly polished, can exhibit some pretty conspicuous "hada-like" grain in them. It's a product of the rolling and milling process incidentally called "mill grain". It can be quite convincing (or deceiving) too. Alloy banding formations can also look like small kinsugi or chikei like activity too. Mantetsu and Dairen swords often exhibit this hada"esque" feature and look very similar to that on Hizen blades. Some are courser and some very very fine. I had one SMR gunto with long strands of running itame and masame throughout the whole blade. Those swords were not hand forged, but produced by an innovative electrolitic process. Here's two images of a Koaisshin blade.

I think there were about as many left handed swordsmen in Japan as there were one-armed archers. A left handed draw would necessitate a "reversed" kurigata for wear on the right hip. How many of these have we seen?

Correct me if I'm wrong Ford, but wouldn't also etching on a material such as shakudo also lead to a bit of depleation plating which would also hinder the patination or render it ineffective? Shakudo has gold in it that would remain on the surface in larger part than the copper etched away leaving a sheen or odd coloration to the plate surface. Somewhere I read about this actually being a technique in some Mayan or Incan sculpture to give a gold hue to the piece.

Hi Mark, Not Omiya to me either, wrong boshi. A kantei point for Omiya is a type of choji (Bukuro Choji if I remember correctly) it looks like a bag thrown over a shoulder. The yakiba is too tall in the ji for Omiya to me. From your images, it looks like there's masame in the shinogi. That with the boshi, and the shape point me to Shinto period. Maybe Kanewaka school stuff? That thick muneyaki is a bit confusing though. Best I can come up with.

Best I can tell you Joe is to contact him and talk about your needs. He's about the only option I know of for the type of sword you have.

Hi John, Welcome to the forum. As a guy that basically wears two hats in this stuff I agree with what Ford says, while also understanding and respecting the nature of workstyle someone like yourself is pursuing. You must keep them seperate to understand what each are in the scope of a craft. So let me give you the same advice I give every western smith that draws their inspiration from traditional Japanese swords. You MUST study the old in order to understand the new. There is no getting around this. So many of the western smiths that make Japanese styled stuff just can't seem to get the knife maker out of their blood and this is immediately evident in every work they make. Putting a hamon on a piece of metal is a miniscule part of what the craft involves. Most of what gets lost on Western smiths is that Japanese sword craft is more about making great steel than making a good looking sword. Some of the most admired Japanese swords in history have what could be classified as sedate looking hamons, but the *steel* is the real brilliance and genius of their work. A traditionally made Japanese sword is the visible history of the smith's abilities to; Choose proper raw material Refine the material into suitable base material Join it with other base materials for composition Control in forging consistant composition to shape Heat treat the composition with control for optimal performance These are facets of skill and judgment that *exponentially* effect the outcome which visably identify periods, regions, schools, and even individual smiths. Yes, Japanese smiths today are making modern blades, but still within the scope of traditional methods following the pathways of the aforementioned regions and schools, so they are not making them in the same context as most western smiths. Based on the above, western smiths have very limited ability to demonstrate equivalent works because the materials they most often use are "off the shelf, ready to use" monosteels, while traditional perameters don't accomodated this. Thus, works in monosteel although durable and resilient, and very often demonstrate skilled heat treating, always lack the spirit of a sword made from steel refined from ore from the start. This includes the forge folded works many smiths use to create hada as an elemental feature of interest, when in traditional aspects hada is a by product of the smith's skill in makingthe steel rather than forging wads of it up for sake of having interesting grain in a blade. Given the nature of monosteel, it also is not amenable to the same polishing applications that of traditional Japanese sword steel. Modern steels have elements that prevent them from being polished by traditional methods because they have been designed to be scratch resistant, high tensile strength, flexibility, etc, with promoting elements like very high carbon, chromium, molybdenum, manganese, etc., that polishing stones simply will not work on. Japanese polishing and sword craft developed colaterally over centuries. Therefore the polishing monosteels has very little crossover and modern methodology must be incorporated to shape and polish modern steels that would be seen as barbaric if applied to traditional Nihonto. Again, very little cross over there. By all means, make what you like to make, but keep firmly founded on what both really are in the scope of things and make no pretenses. One "is" and the other "something kinda like". Again welcome to the forum. I hope you find it an enrichening and enlightening experience.

Now that's a nice set of fuchi kashira! Lovely.... If I understand the nature of your question correctly then; I think the "intent" is the major hinge point to determining the nature of the work. So much of the arts rely on chemicals in both composition and treatment to achieve a desired end, that saying some are okay and others not depends largely on whether the artist is trying to manipulate, or circumvent a process for the purposes of deception or just churning out work. In and of itself, if chemicals are used as a methodology and technique within personal styles or traditions, then the results are all that really matters. If the work is nice, then great. If it's crap, then it's a poor process regardless of the technique. But between schools and makers, turning a blind eye to one while pointing finges at another maker because they used chemicals is very hypocritical. I'd also add that there's no free lunch. The folks doing excellent work using chemicals have a wide range of differing concerns and must have the skillset to control and acheive success in their works that inlay technicians may not. Again, if the work is very skillfully applied and the result is nice, then it's a successful technique. One could argue the *longevity* of one piece over the other because of the technique, but again this is largely dependant on the skills of the craftsman. I've seen inlays that were poorly done and thus there were losses to the work. Therefore, it wasn't better work just because it was mechanically attached.

Not many options when it comes to polishing Arsenal and Factory made Showato. Scratches are scratches and they all come out pretty much the same way. The polishes on most of these swords weren't that great when they left the factory though there are odd nicely done ones. Heck, it's only within the past twenty odd years that nicer Gendai have started to be accepted by polishers. The polishing costs just simply run as much or more than the sword is worth when finished. Not sure who might be willing to do them actually, though I know Fred Lohman offers polishing and frankly, for the money he charges and type of sword, this might be the best or only option.

Ian, Your tanto is inscribed "Rai Kunitsugu". Just a cursory comparison of the inscription shows it is not by the hand of the very high level smith of that name, therefore it is "gimei" (false signature). The nakago (tang) and blade shape is also not what would be expected of that smith or time period. This looks like a later period work and not as skilled as the earlier Rai smiths. In the past several months this is the third gimei Rai Kunitsugu I have seen. I wonder if they were not made by later Rai decended smiths as copies. A closer, "in hand", examination by a knowledgeable person would be needed to determine it's candidacy for restoration and value, but the caveat is that most of the swords like this are lower quality.

Hmm, I could go to Echizen Kinai work on this. I've seen that nunome work on Kinai pieces before, and there's less detail and depth of carving than I'd expect of Choshu. Just my thoughts...

Being at or near the top of several thousand Google hits proves this untrue Rich. I've been to you site four times in two days. Don't sell your site and efforts short. I'd offer that your site has had broader impact on educating both newbies and veterans than any others. It's a great starting point, waypoint, and destination. Hey, ya can't mess with the classics! :lol: