Ted Tenold

Re-reading my post, I thought that I should clarify that I also like it very much, and re-emphasize the skill in which the image was rendered. Having never seen anything comparable in period work, my mental reference then shifts me to classify it stylistically as I described. That said, I would love to see other examples of this artists work so I could add them to my christmas list. :lol: So please do post some if you find them Ford.

I should have some pictures by the middle of next week. A friend has them and he's not available to get images of them until then. Namban fuchi kashira are highly unusual, as are menuki. I actually saw a namban kozuka once as well, and haven't seen another since. They're not too difficult to imagine if you think of a namban tsuba in the form of fuchi and kashira. :lol:

No argument from me Eric. It was a pretty "soft" speculation. :lol: Better to have the pieces in hand as none of the images really show us the amount of details and topography we need.

Thank you Todd, that's quite nice of you. The board and I'm sure it's members also appreciate it. Contact Brian and he'll advise you of the best way to proceed with whatever you decide.

Marc, I know of another set. I can see if it's available. There were also Namban menuki. I will check with them and PM you.

Jean, I'm not sure I have a good answer for you on why the yasuri are stronger on one side than the other. One might suspect that a date or some dubious information might have been removed from just one side, but the faded areas are not in the place were an inscription would likely be found, and two examples of the same observation is pretty conincidental. What I notice is that both tanto have multiple mekugiana of which some have been filled. I wonder if in the old days, the plugs were installed flush on the side of the nakago with the mei, and the opposing unsigned side the plugs filed down slightly altering the surrounding yasuri(?). This would preserve the mei side and put the bulk of alteration on the unsigned side. This is *purely* speculation on my part though. I can't explain it otherwise... Might be worth researching other examples, especially those that are ubu with one mekugi ana. Perhaps the yasuri were just lighter handed on one side and are more prone to errosion by contact with the wood interior of the tsuka. Or, perhaps the mei stands proud enough to sheild the yasuri on that side from the same contact. Again... I think the price of this piece reflects the whole package; a very healthy well preserved blade, a lovely high quality koshirae, and an elegant box for all. One certainly would be hard pressed to assemble such a package today for the same price.

Jim, Well, it doesn't work like that. If you knew it was Juyo already, you wouldn't reasonably resubmit it to Juyo shinsa. You request replacement papers for the sword which will then be verified against the Juyo recording in the Zufu. I know of one sword that passed Juyo and then was later submitted again to Juyo shinsa as if it had no papers already. The hope was for a better attribution . The NBTHK came back with the answer "This sword is already Juyo", and that was the end of it. What I will say is that the attributions on mumei swords can change slightly if a Juyo piece is then submitted to Tokubetsu Juyo shinsa. For example in the case of Sadamune or Go Yoshihiro where there are no extant *signed* examples, the attribution will change to "Den" (in the tradition of) Sadamune or "Den" Go Yoshihiro because it is the policy of the NBTHK to define den in the Tokuju rank in the lack of signed comparative works. For a good article about the "Den" designation read Bob Bensons article here: http://www.bushidojapaneseswords.com/Den%20article.pdf

I've moved this topic to Ebay/Sales as it's plainly obvious that the depth of discussion pertains to Todd's listings or things that will be listed. Let me state that while I have no problem with helping folks, I also believe that there is limit to hospitality. It's obvious that members are willing to help Todd and as long as Brian has no problem with it, then so be it. Keep it simple and keep it civil. We don't need 50 pages of blather and confusion. @ Todd; I hope you truely value and appreciate the information and generosity of help you are getting from this forum. People here can be quite helpful and that's a good thing. This board operates on annually donated funds from people in the Nihonto community who enjoy sharing information with like minded folks, and actually donate items of value themselves in support of it. However this forum was never intended as an information source for sellers. Occasionally it happens, whether confessed or covert, and we tend to turn the other cheek about it. Therefore, keep in mind that hospitality is something that should neither be expected nor abused. As was pointed out, you are no stranger to Ebay, and according to your Ebay profile, you are no stranger to antiques. So I'll presume you also know that information is king. You might consider donating a nominal amount to help this board continue, for all the help it and it's members has been to you already, and is likely to be still yet. Of course this is not a requirement, only a humble suggestion. I'd suggest also keeping this thread going with future items. Moderators don't enjoy looking through 20 threads if they can visit just one that contains the subject matter adequately. This one does. Since it's just a sales mission for you, this singular thread will suit just fine, just keep adding to it. That will keep it at the top of the queue without several other seperate threads bumping others out of visibility position, which is not fair. @ Everyone; This thread is bumping the tolerance needle pretty hard sometimes. Be nice. If you want to help, then do so. If you don't want to, then don't. If you're interested in Todd's items, PM him, email him, or check his seller ID which is rollinon20s . Otherwise, let's keep the signal to noise ratio down.

None of this has anything to do with swords. Everyone go back to studying, or helping, or buying, or selling, or whatever. Keep these forums clear of this silly banter. Locked.

Hey Tom, Do they look like the Uchide no kozuchi belonging to Daikokuten? Perhaps a wish for fortune multiplied? Un-used or un-needed wishes? Sounds like a very interesting set. I've never seen this subject either.

Or at gun shows where it would be immediately recognized as a "belt buckle". :lol: Personally, I think it's cast, as in "casting couch". :lol:

Without putting too fine a point on it; you should be more focused on the aspect of identifying the validity of the sword than the validity of the story. The story, though slightly entertaining, is quite unimportant. I once dealt militaria with a dealer in California. He owned a shop full of interesting things. On the wall hung a US Calvaryman's bugle with cord and tassel. It was damaged with a big dent. On the tag it said "This bugle belonged to one of General Custer's men. The guy that sold it to me said so. You can see the dent where his horse stepped on it". Of course this was tongue in cheek, and it was plainly just an old damaged calvary bugle.

Jim, For the life of me, I cannot figure out what your issue is with this sword, it's rank, or the NBTHK. :? Shomeisho are replacement papers for lost original Juyo papers. It's that simple. It is a Juyo, recorded as a Juyo in the Zufu for that particular year, and will always be recognized as a Juyo. The age of the papers, or their existence does not deminish it's rank or the judgement. Papers are frequently lost, and as Mark pointed out, lower tiers are not recorded in such a way as to be verifiable for replacement papers. There are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of them. Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon papers which are lost cannot be replaced. The piece must be resubmitted for judgement. Older papers such as Kicho, Tokubetsu Kicho, have been the subject of suspicion (the "whys" have been discussed before so I'll leave that to the search function) and the only way to find out if they are genuine is to submit the piece for upgraded papers (Hozon or Tokuho). If the piece is found to be gimei or with flaws precluding paper issue, it will be simply noted "No Upgrade". This scenario however is not an issue for Juto. They can be referenced. The difference in measurement is so minor it is likely just a small variance where the wrong mark was read on the measure. Early Jutos (those from about the late 1960's and prior) are frequently praised for being at the upper end of quality. Most folks believe it's because the standards of judgement were more stringent, and that is true to a lesser degree. However, I believe another reason is the fact that most of the early Juyos were still in Japan and never left, or were found outside Japan early on as very obviously qualitative pieces. They more or less set the standard of measure. Swords as art had not quite caught on outside Japan in those early days, but when they did and the submissions increased, they were judged by those that came before them. Additionally, those that left Japan were subjected to any number of detriments to condition and thus to their health, the likes of which would be far less in Japan where they would have been more properly care for. It was not ununsual for Japanese to have difficulty examining swords here in the U.S., because they were not accustomed to looking through rust and damage. Over a span of three or four decades, the pool of greater works naturally saw a deminishiment, and the criteria for importance migrated to a subjectively lower tolerance. However that tolerance has seemed to find it's bottom in the past few years with less swords passing Juyo. It is only reasonable to conclude that the body of qualified extant pieces will begin to dry up over time. As Jean said, there are Juyo swords in many price ranges. This year I've seen several sell for well under $20,000 US while others are well above $100,000 US. "Juyo Token" is not a price scale, it a rank of importance as an extant art sword. Market sets the price according to rarity, stylistic appeal, quality, and condition. This is no different than the Hozon swords I've seen reaching $40,000 or more. Doesn't mean they aren't Juyo quality, they just haven't been submitted to the process to get it. So... Yes, the original paper is nice to have, and to a lesser degree it does impact the price of a piece, the severity of which depending on the piece itself. It's part of the provinance of the piece and forms an integral part of wanting a Juyo sword or kodogu. But if the certificate is the main focus, why even consider the sword in the first place?? The work is the important part, and if it's a cataloged Juto, then so be it.

Tim, I'm a horse themed fittings fan and have collected them for quite a while. It's a very interesting piece and rendered unlike any I've ever seen of this subject by any maker. That said, I can't help but feel this tsuba is contrived or at best, a contemporary work by a modern maker. Katakiri bori renderings generally reflect a more simplistic (or should I say minimalistic) execution as they were inspired by sumi-e (ink brushed pictures) with artists such as the Yokoya group being some of the most celebrated. This work looks more like it was inspired by a modern Western (even Remington-esque) image. Also the placement seems rather odd with the image leaving a lot more blank space in the lower opposing region with not even simple texturing to balance the composition. The signature also looks a bit rudementary compared to the complexity of the image details and I'd like to think that a maker with those kinds of skills could better sign his name. The surface patina (or lack thereof) also leaves me scratching my head. Perhaps it was cleaned at some point, but it is dull and a bit lifeless. I do hope I'm wrong, and it's not my intention to criticize as much as it is to confess what my intuitions say. However, I wouldn't be surprised if little about this maker could be found based on my observations, which are just that; my observations and opinions.

These days?? About even it seems. Let me save us the trouble...

Mario, I wish I had a dollar for every one of the times folks have asked me privately about Komonjo auctions. Having said that, and in consideration that this seller is pretty visable to a community of knowledgable folks that just *love* to buy genuine works at low relative prices, do you really believe that you can buy a genuine Kiyomaro from an often discussed dealer on the world's largest buying venue,..... for a song?

It's ironic that the value in my collection of books has increased more over the years than swords and fittings I've owned.

Ron, It should also be noted that a gakumei can be gimei (false) as those on unaltered nakago, and should be subject to the same diligence of research and authentication. However, gakumei must *also* be confirmed by the work in the blade as a good signature on a damaged or tired sword could be removed and installed on a non-related blade. Therefore it is subject to even more scrutiny in the lack of supporting official genuine documentation. Be careful out there.

I want to caution folks about returns of items like this. If you do approach the seller for a return, do so in a civil and humble manner. I have seen some of these things acquired by folks who know little, *from* folks who know little, and the seller may have taken things on just as much faith as the buyer did. Some of these items may get traded about quite a bit before crossing the path of someone who finally brings some truth of origin to the piece taking everyone by surprise. So before you go back to a seller all puffy chested and , take a deep breathe and go back calm and collected. How the seller deals with it thereafter will define their moral fiber and merit of character.

Roger, forgive my bluntness here but, given the state of polish, type of sword, and the expense involved, why even bother? Getting these things restored will quickly put you waaaayyyy upside down in them even if you got it for free. Even if the blade is worth polishing, it should go into a fresh shirasaya, not a re-lined gunto saya. Just my thoughts on a matter of trying to save you some money.

We already have one that works pretty good; " "

Barry, Check your email.

First thing I see; An unokubi hirazukuri Muramasa? Not a shape I'd expect from the smith or the period. Lots of Shinshinto pieces in this shape though.

Jorgenson, The tsuba signature reads "Nobuiye", and appears to made in the style of that maker. It does not appear to display the quality of the Nobuiye who was a very famous tsuba maker. Some of the more knowledgeable fittings guys here might be able to elaborate on the details of Nobuiye, any succesive generations, etc.. To me it appears to be a copy. If you do some searches I'm sure you'll find a fair amount of info. Please don't forget to sign your posts with your name.

Tanned Samegawa is not suitable for tsuka construction in the traditional sense. Because it is tanned, it is flexible and soft. The samegawa that is used for tsuka is rawhide form. It's rock hard when dry and softens when soaked in water becoming hard again when dry again. The tanned stuff makes great wallets (mine is nearly 15 years old) and motorcycle seats though. :lol: