Spartancrest

Chris S. The patina is good and even, I like it for what it is. Have you any idea how the tiny punch dots got there around the seppa-dai and the bottom cross shapes? They are something different, can't work out what that means. Was the finisher doodling with his tools or did it happen much later?

George M. Just getting back to you, I have found a picture of a rather too common fuchi with kabuto decoration, I know its common because I had one just the same (for the life of me can't find it though) So there was/is a huge industry pushing out copies of all sorts of fittings and no doubt the sword collectors will include swords as well - just who when and where I don't know - the why is always money!

Chris S. & Stephen K. Well they look like a much better guard in this design than average, obvious fine carving but what worries me Chris is the chip on the top, a casting spill bottom right and the fact it has no evidence of being mounted. Comparing yours and Stephen's you can see they have differences in the inner ring of 'petals' or ornament. Stephen's likewise shows no evidence of having been mounted, it too has fine carving and the eyes as he says look like inlay,also the 'seppa-dai' is finer. What I can't decide is if the beading is faulty or has suffered bad corrosion. From the pictures I can't tell if the beading on Stephen's is hemispherical or just curved in one direction. Don't shoot the messenger, but that cast over-run at the bottom does not bode well, as I think I may have said before a lot of cast guards were reworked (Izarae) to bring out the finer detail. If indeed Chris's guard is Hizen then the Hizen school must have done some casting. I can only go on what I see, to prove my observations check the comparative pics of both guards and the highlighted areas. Sorry but you did ask.

Grev. "Hi Dale The link is a description not place to buy the V2" You will get me into trouble if you want to buy a V2 - I understand they were not very popular about 70 years ago!

I am unsure of the production methods, some of the castings are very detailed and I would think lost wax method unlikely. When did injection molding of iron start? There are some copies that look stamped out like coins, this is not some backyard operation it is high tech factory production. I know a lot of Kinai school pieces were production line produced copies of famous designs. I think that the majority of iron copies are older than 40 years - examples in 19th century collections are evident. I did just purchase some obvious repro menuki (Gold as it happens). That I intended to use as decoration on my tsuba display boards, they are still on their way. Paid 1,000 yen about $12, the seller must have heaps he sells them in batch lots!

In Australia it's 'dodgy' or 'a bit dodgy', there is a gradient !

George M. Menuki are not my thing - but have certainly seen many that look alike to me, there are also a lot of fuchi that turn up, not the obvious Chinese fakes and modern sword shop manufacturers but once again looking ubu but there are just too many of the same design and not utsushi because they are too much alike. Namban: don't get me started. I have a page layout from my book here, its a bit blurry because of the way I copied it, I have retyped my comments in the lower right corner, it should be noted that a lot of copies have also included tagane-ato imprints in the casting and not added by a chisel so dont try to adjust in this way you will only get a broken replica! Also I have some examples of one of the most common namban dragon cast copies.[The pages have the alternative spelling of nanban.] As well you may not like the other composite picture that shows a range of copies that are very common - and some adorn the collections in the worlds best Museums. There are also copies done in soft metals that are also common.

Just checked his site - all his gear, and some of it very nice, is eye wateringly priced ! Out of my league. https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html?_odkw=&_ssn=hirotakahori&item=114176467435&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR10.TRC1.A0.H0.Xtsuba.TRS1&_nkw=tsuba&_sacat=0

Grev Like I said not a tech head - see if this works ABE BOOKS has Public Domain/ Metro Vol 2 from US$ 37.65 https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=0464534364&clickid=39fXoEwvlxyORKSwUx0Mo3k3UkixSGX4xUpMRU0&cm_mmc=aff-_-ir-_-64613-_-77416&ref=imprad64613&afn_sr=impact Living on opposite sides of the planet has its timing difficulties!

Roger 2 Glad you didn't do that swim across - the water is a bit chilly, you do realise it's nearly ten times the distance of the English channel, have you tried that before? To keep the thread moving I include another set of copies that may upset a few collectors - it upset me! My very first guard I ever purchased turned out to be a fake ! At least my example is of better detail than this lot and probably had some izarae [finishing]. It shows a Chinese General and Sage from a famous Chinese legend.[ Looks like the General is trying to read the other guys newspaper ]

Grev I am no tech head when it comes to links - only just discovered you can cut and paste links few weeks ago - doesn't help if you can't find the link to start with though! Hope these work but no guarantee. https://www.blurb.com/b/9752025-public-domain-tsuba-in-the-metropolitan-museum-of Public Domain tsuba in the Metropolitan Museum Vol 1 (474 pages) https://www.blurb.com/b/9752162-public-domain-tsuba-in-the-metropolitan-museum-of Public Domain tsuba in the Metropolitan Museum Vol 2 (336 pages) https://www.blurb.com/b/9036855-early-articles-for-tsuba-study-1880-1923-revised-e Early articles for tsuba study revised. 6x9 in. (15x23 cm) trade book. (364 pages) https://www.blurb.com/b/9457875-early-articles-for-tsuba-study-1880-1923-enlarged Early articles for tsuba study enlarged. 8x10 in. (20x25 cm) trade book. (392 pages) ABE BOOKS has Public Domain/ Metro Vol 2 from US$ 37.65 https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?isbn=0464534364&clickid=39fXoEwvlxyORKSwUx0Mo3k3UkixSGX4xUpMRU0&cm_mmc=aff-_-ir-_-64613-_-77416&ref=imprad64613&afn_sr=impact I make note that while doing the Met book I was amazed to see how many 'Kaneie' style guards Bashford Dean donated to the museum, he seems to have had a real predilection for them, maybe he thought that if you collect enough you might get lucky and find a master-work.

Grev When you get the book let me know any mistakes you can find, I am no expert but have opinions gained over a long time. If I know a mistake I can get the book fixed for the benefit of others. My biggest regret is that approx one third of the Met collection are under copyright so we all miss out on whats there [ and that is most of the really good stuff ] The book prices I get from Blurb are cheaper but postage is still a killer.

Ken Goldstein Well we don't have any tourists at all at the moment, that distillery is shut to the public at Burnie,[ Not Tassie's prettiest town. ] Lucky for me I don't drink - can't afford the brain cells! Did you pass through Latrobe in the North West? or Sheffield? [my old stomping ground] Is this a tourist thread?

Grev Boston V1? Metropolitan Museum you mean? Amazon is very confusing price wise they offer second hand editions of books that are not even printed yet!, Vol 2 should be cheaper than volume 1 it has slightly less pages, I bought my copies direct from Blurb.com who do my printing - found they have a better range of paper options and four or five print qualities - To keep price down on the theory that cheaper would make them more available to the many - went for economy printing. Would recomend looking at more book sale sites than Amazon they are not always the cheapest. I couldn't even afford my own books in hard cover, just as well, I had to fix a few spots before I listed them! Proof reading on a screen is hard work! Did not consider doing an electronic rendering of the Met book, why bother if you are on the computer just go to the Met on-line. I like reading in bed with the real thing in hand and its quicker to turn the page!

Stephen K I think they are a bit pricey but that is out of my control, the printer and distributor make all the cash - I do the work and get pennies, but I really only do it for fun and to spread some info, in English. I am sure the other authors [i prefer editor] don't publish for the money and they do a good job too. Marcus Sesko and Gary D. Murtha have some great reference books that I often go back to for information, written well and easy to take in.

Steven K. The book is one of my own ' Collected References .&. book of Utsushi'- This one not available to the general public because it contains some otherwise copyrighted articles 320 pages - could send a copy at print cost that way not making a profit - so does that constitute infringement? I mainly do books on tsuba - I think I am up to forty books by now. Not all out there on the book sites, though I think its about seven going at the moment. Mainly reworked out of copyright stuff some translated from German and French. In my humble opinion "Early Articles for Tsuba Study 1880 -1923" Enlarged Edition. is the most interesting, 390 pages with hundreds of B&W pictures. What is selling well for me right now is "Public Domain Tsuba in the Metropolitan Museum" a two volume edition of over 800 pages in colour. To keep the price within reasonable bounds most of my books are not printed on glossy paper - but I have the original layouts so can change that if needed. I have one book that I am unsure if I should release generally. "The Etiquette of Seppuku" that was originally published in1871 as a section in "Tales of Old Japan" by Lord Redesdale. It is only 30 pages but gives a first hand account of what he witnessed and several other accounts - what worries me is I don't want this out there as a 'How to do' book, some of it is very graphic. This is published in colour - with blood stained paper! Also have a three volume hard cover edition on the "Sir Arthur Church collection of tsuba in the Ashmolean museum Oxford "- on glossy paper with a title page disclaimer reading ' Not for general dissemination and solely for research purposes.' as a one off that I would sell at below cost. Approx 720 pages and contains over 1,200 tsuba in full colour. That one took me months to do! By saying that selling my books is 'going well at the moment' - the sales such as they are, help keep me in poverty, small market in a specialized field. This is all way of subject sorry. Roger d. I have a lot of images of what can only be termed mass produced guards, they look ubu but when you see 5, 6, 50 of them over time they start to stand out, I even have an instance where a Japanese site was selling a batch lot of one design [one I had had in the past - yes like everyone else I have been stung] even managed to offend an Italian 'expert' who had had his piece verified by a prominent European museum- he didn't like the evidence - while he was selling it for several thousand euro!

Roger D. My own suspicion is that most of the 'good' copies/fakes were made in Japan possibly as late as the early 20th century - and they must have really cranked them out! They had the skill and knew what features to include. You don't have to be an expert [whatever that means] to spot the huge number of Chinese fakes that continue to flood almost every auction site. I have in the past even notified some major international auction houses to let them know they are selling - poor and to me at least very obvious fakes, and to their credit some have removed them from sale or at least relisted them as copies. I have also been in contact with a few museums and showed them evidence that some of their pieces are cast copies [and hardly worth displaying as genuine to confuse the general public]. (Yes I have too much time on my hands) Museums like the Ashmolean and the V&A are good at replying but reluctant to change their listings - certainly not in any hurry. As an example of other copies and showing the [vast] difference between Japanese copies [not utsushi, one exception being a Shoami utsushi top left page 300] and the Chinese, see the illustration [taken from a self published book I made for my own better view ] The design is Soten school I think, but the pieces are not genuine. [Let me know if the image is hard to read.]

Grev. Thanks for that, found another up for sale/auction tonight in Japan with a Buy it now price 18,000 yen- think that gets me to 25 or 26 different images of all the same [if that makes sense.]

Axel I didn't know monkeys only had one side - is it the outside? Chris S. Given there are only 62 monkeys you need to factor in all their toes as well as their fingers - then you get 1240 - now 1240 is interesting because that was the year the Heike Monogatari (The tale of Heike) was compiled from unwritten traditional tales and variant texts composed between 1190 and 1221, gathered together probably by a scholar named Yukinaga, to form a single text. - Now you know just how bored I really am!

Just a general enquiry, but has anyone any evidence that any tsuba or fitting ever actually had 1,000 monkeys depicted on it? I have done some research and can't even find one with 100 on it - can't they count! As a fill in time exercise I have found one that looks very thick with monkeys and actually numbered them - not even close - 62 is a far cry from 100 and a long plane ride from 1,000. Any thoughts?

Grev So sorry to be the bearer of bad news, yes your guard is a typical copy. Almost all have an identical nakago-ana - though a few have casting spills at the top of the hole making it even narrower. I don't know how they were made so well so often! I assume the maker didn't have injection molding! The mei is sometimes blurry, worn or non existent - so possible multiple 'die' were used. I have mine before me as I write, they are certainly big bold and heavy! Just checked my records and found it cost me all of 23 yen [approx 25c] - postage and fees were most of the bill! Thats a bargain even for a paper weight. For others out there I have posted an image showing the main points to check out - I love this forensic stuff! Ps. Can I add the image of your guard to my ever increasing data base?

Brian I have seen some examples that are close to this design that were hand cut [ the one pictured is clearly in a league of it's own ], but I am just giving a caution on the large numbers that are copies. I have also seen a large number of what purport to be Hamano guards that are also copies - the difference with those being they are sometimes in different metals and some have iroe (colouring) but every one has the same simulated tagane-ato marks done with a Chysanthemum punch - the detailing is mainly good though some are very worn because of the soft nature of what-ever alloy was used. I watch with some alarm at some of the set prices on a few of these that reach into the thousands of dollars - especially since I purchased one for less than ten dollars [knowing full well it was a copy] I also know that there is one original or at least utsushi that is on the market now with N.B.T.H.K Hozon papers selling for ¥530,000 - which puts it out of my league! Some people may not like to know, that what they have are only copies - especially if they have paid big dollars, but equally others may be relieved they didn't 'invest' in a fake. I have plenty of other 'mass-copy' files on record.

This subject has been discussed previously as far back as 2011, but just a short update on the growing number of these "tsuba" to use a word very loosely. I have added an often neglected view showing the bottom edge where the giveaway casting marks are often found. Collectors should be made aware of these often high priced 'Paper weights'. I continue to collect images of these things as they continue to pop up, there are a few right now on auction sites so have a real close look when you buy.

Peter There is a real similarity with your example Italian [plate XVIII] and the thickened edges of the first new example. The finish of the edge is a bit plain though, when you consider the detail on both faces. And of course there is no cupping of the plate that I can see but as most Japanese cupped tsuba were mounted in an opposite direction to European guards - perhaps as a way of keeping dust out of the saya - pierced guards would let dust in, so why cup them anyway?

Peter I have the opinion that some of the guards you displayed are repurposed "European" pieces, those that have a re-cut tang hole (not nakago-ana) would never have been made with a square section cut-through if made in Asia / Japan for domestic purposes why would they? The sword blade tangs of Asian swords were not thin square cross-section like those of Rapiers and Foils from Europe. Is it reasonable that these tang holes would be put in just for show, when if mounted there is no way this could be seen? It is perhaps more reasonable to assume that if they were indeed made in Asia or Japan they were intended as guards for European weapons not Japanese at all. What we see are leftovers altered for Asian and Japanese swords. I believe we have been looking in the wrong direction at a lot of 'namban' guards. As an after thought can anyone tell me if 'namban' or 'nanban' is the correct spelling? You can Google both and get just about the same results. It may well be a time to call them what they really are - Asian export guards.