Spartancrest

They said it would get worse!

Well it has finally happened, my tsuba collection has come down with Covid-19 ! See the resemblance?

Mandrin Mansions archive. Description: "An interesting sword guard of unusual form. It is an eight lobed design like most Vietnamese guards of this shape tend to be. The washer seat is of typical Japanese form, but this form was also copied in Vietnam, mostly in the 17th century. It has an opening for a by-knife, but again such by-knives (cite>kogatana in Japanese) were also adopted in Vietnam. -The reason for this strong Japanese influence on Vietnamese arms was considerable immigration from Japan to Vietnam due to social unrest in Japan. The Japanese were not welcome in China, where they were regarded as pirates, so those who were good enough sailors pressed on to Vietnam where they settled and started new lives. Some masterless samurai found jobs employed by the Dutch VOC and other European traders.- Around the washer seat is a five-pointed blazing star, then a stippled background made with a round dot-punch, and the very border consists of eight shapes best described as drawer handles reminiscent of European work. These can also be extremely stylized clouds in the Chinese fashion. The whole effect of the decoration feels like it is mimicking tooled leather. A very interesting piece, worthy of further study." https://archive.mandarinmansion.com/images/nanban-tsuba/lobed-guards/lobed-guard1a.jpg https://archive.mandarinmansion.com/images/nanban-tsuba/lobed-guards/lobed-guard1b.jpg Excerpt from 'Nanban Tsuba and Asian Export Sword Guards' by James Lancel McElhinney. "A couple of mystery pieces. The numbers six and eight are auspicious in Buddhist iconography. The drawer-handle motif is a common enough device in Asian decorative arts. The central flower might be read as a stylized lotus, but the nanako-like stippling is a curious feature on an iron guard. Tekkotsu exists in the rim of the smaller of the two. Both are relatively thin, carved wrought iron plates, not cast, The late John Lissenden referred to Nanban guards that copied Iberian leatherwork. Portuguese sea-chests were often made of tooled leather, as was some upholstery and wall-coverings. I suspect this may be the effect the makers of these pieces were trying to achieve. ("Nanako" by the way is also a special nubby weave of silk that resembles fish-roe). At an antique arms show recently I saw an identical piece lying on a table. The owner told me that it had been made by a member of the Yagyu family in 1928!" http://www.shibuiswords.com/asianexportguards_files/alpha1.jpg http://www.shibuiswords.com/asianexportguards_files/alpha2.jpg

Peter Has the guard been cleaned recently? The sekigane look 'fresh' and the 'gold' on the wings look a little wrong - may be the quality of the image but looks more like 'gold paint' rather than applied by heat or percussion. I have not seen ategane [or ume] like this before, strange treatment. The Tonbo (Dragonfly) look like cartoon representations - could be modern anime prop. Could be wrong.

Vago Sorry I posted the topic in the wrong forum. In fact have just puchased three of them in the last month and looking out for more! Dale

Dear Brian. Yes have read both those articles, Mandrin Mansions had me intrigued, as the description of eight lobed examples, are in fact in the minority, so the assertion that they are Vietnamese based on their shape is in my mind not valid. I am rather taken with them for their naivety in execution and admire the tooled leather effect they have in hand. You realise the same guards are in both articles? Dale

I have recently come across a series of tsuba - if that is what they are - other sources have termed them "asian export guards" as there is some dispute as to their origin. I have found at least thirteen examples, all slightly different and not cast. I have five examples in my own collection. One example not in my collection is listed as 'Bushu' but I have not found another attribution from that school. Another is described as Vietnamese based on an eight lobed design common in that country, however as I have found maru (round), four, five, six and eight lobed examples this reasoning would seem thin. (An eight lobed example currently on eBay.) I would welcome any comments or ideas as to their origin.

In reply to Lee Bray "catastrophic failure means the tsuba falls off completely, leaving a large space with loose seppa and habaki. With softer materials, I doubt they would break so completely and I think the core, or seppa dai if you will, will remain intact and keep your tsuka tight and useable." I have done some testing of my own, by remounting one of my swords without a tsuba- retaining the seppa and habaki. In the event of catastrophic tsuba loss, the sword remains completely usable and if the tsuka is made correctly remains tight. The loss of the mekugi however would have different consequences. This is a little off the subject of cast tsuba but physical experimentation rather than what we think will happen often shows better results. Dale

Lee Ouch! That looked like a nice Ex-tsuba! You may well be right about cast guards not surviving impact - could be a good (but expensive) testing criteria of guards that we are unsure of- just drop them on a tiled floor. . . No I am not serious! Do we have any evidence of when the first iron casting of tsuba and fittings took place? It would be interesting to know. There are a lot of very fine cast Namban guards that have some age to them. Some would be very difficult to cast even today, In my opinion that makes them collectible just for that sake- practical no, tour-de-force casting yes. . Getting back to the "Dai monji tsuba". Has anyone seen any Sekigane on any of these guards? Have any actually been mounted? I have seen no evidence on the ten or eleven that I have seen, if you have it may mean you have glimpsed the mythical progenitor. Dale

Ford I read the earlier offshoot thread you posted about cast tsuba- and would agree most were made post Edo but as we all know many tsuba were of soft material (horn, leather, lacquered wood) so why is the brittleness of cast iron any drawback to functionality? I think it:s been discussed at length that tsuba are not used defensively, if they were we would surely see many more than we do, with cut marks. The history of cast tsuba and other fittings, I fear is not as clear cut as we may think. Be that as it may I hate getting caught with a cast guard when the seller has told me otherwise. Regards Dale

Dale Just came across this topic and must say i am surprised at the number of people who have not seen these cast (but very well cast) guards. Bought one myself on auction last night paid a whopping 23 yen - yes that"s about 25 cents.. Christmas eve is a great time to go shopping! I have a collage of more of these tsuba images that I have come across over time. Don"t feel left out believe me there are plenty out there.

Found some real crazy stuff. Dale

Kissakai There is a similar "Bell" tsuba in the V&A. Maybe that is where you have seen it before? The picture I have is rather poor - Dale

Hi I have a Tanto sized double clam. A bit worn but well modeled. Dale

Dale This is a very late post, but here are some of my Kawari-gata (irregular shaped) tsuba.

Thanks Jean That's a very nice and as you say unusual piece. I guess my original question "has anyone seen one like it" has been answered - 'Not really'. Yours has some age to it and the width of the fukurin is similar to mine - about the only similarity- I can't help thinking mine and some other 'tsuba -like objects' were made for another reason, gifts on boys day, birthday or some sort of festival offering- just speculation. Perhaps as some have said a hobby piece- I wish it came with a manual! It is going back in its box and filed as - purpose unknown. (or is its purpose to confound?) Dale

Brian & Bruno I have no doubt it is not something that could really be used and have never said it was old, a hobby piece - very likely. (And yes I have Sesko's books too) Despite the doubters it is enameled and though it does not show in the photos the white (stars, blobs, bird excreta) what ever you want to call them are melted into the darker enamel - believe me no amount of paint stripper will wash this stuff off! I also realize that if this was ever to be mounted the nakago would undoubtedly chip and crack the enamel off. I think who ever made this 'thing' they went to a lot of work, in my opinion 'they' saw the fukurin as a major design feature rather than a decorative frame. I have posted two images one of a 'normal odawara' and one of a wide 'plain fukurin' PS.Ford-sarcasm - really. Dale

Ford I will do my best to get images of the layers but my old style scanner is not up to the task. Anyone out there with an x-ray machine? or should I just use a hacksaw to 'prove' a point? There are a large number of tsuba that have images impinging on the seppa-dai so I don't see that as a problem. Dale

Yes Ford This is correct but by boiling in distilled or at least potable water and using one more ingredient that I will keep secret it is possible to avoid rusting altogether .The willow tree piece was cleaned over five years ago and is still in good condition, certainly better than when I got it. The acetic acid is the key and can be found in table vinegar which I also use when the corrosion is not so bad. I never treat tsuba that have inlays or overlays nor kinko tsuba in this way. and don't recommend anyone experimenting on tsuba that still retain patina. Dale

Ford & Grey This time I can't agree with the analysis. Though the pictures can't quiet show, when you look at the cross section thru the nakago-ana it is very clear that three pieces of metal - core of iron and copper sheets either side- make up this guard and the rim is not cast and is soldered together - poorly I admit, but where it should be. If its fake who ever made it went to extraordinary measures to make it. In hand it is also clear to see the edges of the fukurin where it meets the enamel, that makes four layers of metals- - would you bother to go to that much trouble to make a fake? The enamel is almost black but the scanned images show some lighter translucent sections - difficult to impossible to fake with "paint". The "bird sh1t" (and I agree it does look like) could just as easy be interpreted as snow flakes. The aerial view of the photos are not ideal and are never as good as seeing in hand. The guard was from a Japanese auction - - I know this proves nothing - - but the dealer has been honest in the past and does not deal in Chinese fakes. Dale

Thanks Ford This piece was simply cleaned by boiling in a Japanese plum vinegar, a recipe I came across in Japan- trouble is the duration of the immersion varies for each tsuba because the iron always is slightly different. Have had better luck with other pieces and some have required more pickling, but generally within a few months most have begun to colour very well. I enjoy rescuing some of the more neglected tsuba that most people dismiss. These pictures are before/after of another neglected guard, the circled area is a fukure'' I believe, the auction photo was so bad it was invisible with all the rust and dirt. Dale

Dale Sorry I did include some pictures - don't know where they went - will try again!

I just had to bid on a Tsuba that was up for auction with a starting bid of 1 Yen -- What did I have to loose? Well I won - cost 1 Yen. Well that was what you would think. Add 400 yen just for winning, 1,188 yen local delivery fee, 300 yen bank charges, 410 yen for packaging charges and finally 2,000 for international delivery, oh and a percentage charge just for depositing the money. That works out that a 1 yen win cost me about $50 Australian. The guard when I received it was actually worse than its picture suggested, the open cut mimi was bent and deeply covered in rust. I managed to straighten the mimi with no cracking which I would have expected if it were cast.The inside edge is rather sharp, the detailing of the leaves is however a little soft, at the same time the bottom of the seppa-dai is cut sharp so I am confused why the leaves are smooth. I have begun to clean the guard up but it is still early days yet but I expect I can get it back to a much darker patina, after all what have I got to loose!

I have had this small guard for a few years now and like it for both its simplicity and complexity of construction. I am wondering if anyone has seen one like it? By looking closely at the nakago-ana it is possible to see the iron core, the thin copper plates and the fused enamel. The Odawara fukurin: is proportionally large (my dear wife thinks it looks like an old ladies brooch) and the enameling is basic but I still like it. One other point is the colour of the fukurin is darker on one side, is this common? This tsuba was part of a double auction so I figured it cost half the premium, all of $7.50

Geraint I have bought these last two on-line and I have yet to see them 'live'. The site I bought them from is very difficult to get detail information and google translate is not always up to the task. Shoki under his hat is very nice, would probably be out of my price range. Seen many copies same pattern, most though were poor castings around the $20 mark so gave them a wide swerve. I am a poor pensioner so my pieces are modest to say the least, but I do like the more unusual. Dale