IanB

It saddens me to write this but feel that it is something that needs to be said. A recent topic that as far as I know has never been discussed outside of Japan, and perhaps not even there, has had to be locked by our moderators. It was a discussion that, had it been allowed to continue, may have led to exciting new discoveries about our shared passion. I am impressed by the tolerance shown by the moderators, and approve of their decision in acting as they did in this instance. This board is a place where members can and do freely share their knowledge with each other, indulge in interesting discussions as well as offering advice and help. In any such community it is to be expected that not all contributions offered will be valid and some will be irrelevant, but in the vast majority of cases they are polite and offered in good faith. In this instance, and sadly there have been others, what began as an enlightening debate became something less than dignified. Could I plead with members to think twice, or even more, before countering the opinion of another with a personal attack. Such behaviour adds absolutely nothing to the debate, belittles the abuser and closes off any further contributions on the topic by other members. Thank you Ian Bottomley

Gary, I too am surprised these marks have not cropped up in discussions before. What a coincidence that you should post, and I had seen these things within a week. I have given the matter further thought and come up with the obvious - that is they do not seem to occur on tsuba - where they would be much more obvious and would have been noticed. Whatever they were for required a proper punch being made which suggests they had a serious use and not just some transient purpose like the identifying marks added by a hilt maker. Ian

Ken, At the last meeting of the Northern ToKen Society (UK) there was a pair of fuchi / gashira with a similar stamp. The pair depicted gold cherry blossoms amid clouds in shakudo nanako. Inside the fuchi was a stamp of the character GO (5) with a dot below it similar to the DAI stamp that you show. I too have never seen, or perhaps noticed, such things on sword fittings before. Analogous marks are found in German armour from the 16th century, always on the inside and always stamped in such a place to suggest the completed item was held on an anvil to be stamped - in other words the stamp was added after forging. On armour made in Nuremberg, the stamps are the letter N, either in Roman or Gothic script, in various surrounds - some being plain circles, others with pearled borders and so on. I am convinced they are inspection marks put on by the Armourer's Guild to indicate whether the piece was good enough to be polished and incorporated in an expensive armour, or should be left black from the hammer and form part of a munition armour. I have a black and white armour with 5 such marks on the various parts. If the Japanese marks served a similar function, the fact that they are inside suggests they were not added for the final customer but to indicate something, perhaps quality or perhaps and individual's work, during or after production. They could even be something as banal as a price tag. Ian Bottomley

Henk-Jan, Far from being Christian, he was accused by Tokugawa Hidetada of sending Hasekura Tsunenaga to the centre of Christianity and meeting the Pope at the Vatican. He wrote back and pointed out that it was Tokugawa Ieyasu who had instructed him to send the mission, had supplied letters to the Pope, had supplied all the gift armours for the King of Spain, France and others, had built the ship to cross the Pacific in and had supplied 12 Tokugawa samurai as escort. In other words it was the Tokugawa who had largely funded the mission. He also had Tsunenaga's travelling companion executed on their return and three days later banned Christianity in Sendai. Needless to say, Tsunenaga's gifts for Masamune, a portrait of the Pope and one of himself praying at a crucifix went down like a lead balloon. Ian Bottomley

Henk-Jan, I visited Sendai museum where there is a display of photos of the tomb opening and the recovered objects. In the foreground, away from the body, was the remains of an ito maki no tachi that had been reduced to nothing but the lacquer and the fittings. These had been recovered, the lacquer slid onto a new wooden base, the fittings cleaned and re-patinated. Now it is complete again and I would defy you to tell it has ever been damaged. Ian Bottomley

Mark, There's tons on ebay. Ian

Eric, It is covered with one of those painted and embossed leathers similar to the stuff the Dutch imported. I have seen similar leather used for pouches and the like. Interesting item but rather pricey I though. Ian

Eric, I looked at that item as well. ian

Henk-Jan, Piers, Not Cultural Imperial, or vandalism, but more prosaic - simply the need to positively identify the object. You will notice that the painted number is done on a background. That is a readily soluble layer painted on before hand so if the need ever arose, a touch of solvent and all will come off leaving the object unblemished. Ian Bottomley

Further to the above quotations above on armour plates. A relatively small amount of microscopic analysis on armour plates was in fact done by Dr. David Starley and myself on some four or five pieces of armour plate I had accumulated over the years. One was a plate from a dou that was undoubtedly Momoyama in date and it consisted of ferrite. We did notice that the sample was remarkably free from impurities. Similar results were obtained from the other samples with one exception. This was a truly awful quality shikoro that judging by the shape was probably 18th century. The armourer must have worked miracles with multiple coatings of filler to make it look decent when lacquered. Surprisingly the plates of this neck guard were composite, the inner side being ferrite with a thin skin of steeled metal on the outside. Kozan describes this process in Chukokatchu Seisakuben as a means of making bullet resistant armour. Obviously such a small sample means little, but I suspect a lot of armour was in fact iron and it was the shape and work hardening during forging that gave pieces such as masks and helmets their strength. This is particularly obvious with 62 plate suji bachi. As the plates approach the tehen at the top, they twist and are almost on edge around the tehen giving the top of the bowl a considerable thickness even though the plates themselves are relatively thin. Ian Bottomley

Justin, According to Seishi Kamon no Jiten, your kamon was used by a family called Saito. Whether this is THE Saito or not I cannot say. The book simply lists the kamon used by families with names pronounced the same irrespective of the Kanji used. Ian Bottomley

Ron, Very nice stirrups indeed. I have a pair that came with a complete harness that are decorated using the same technique - flush brass inlay. Mine have the added detail of some silver overlay that looks a bit like the tachibana kamon but probably isn't. In the attached picture the stirrup nearest the camera has been cleaned, the other is as obtained. I really must get around to finishing the job. Ian Bottomley

Roy, The kiku sui kamon was used by Kusonoki Masashige and hence is used as a symbol of sacrifice for the emperor. Ian Bottomley

Anthony, The gun is actually from the Burma region. Piers is quite right in that it shares characteristics with Japanese guns since they are cousins. In 1510 the Portuguese captured Goa in India where they already had an arsenal. After rounding up the workers, who had done a runner when the invaders arrived, they were set to work under German supervisors making handguns. It was the Germans who introduced the idea of the snapping matchlock into the equation, as well as the butt shape. There are guns made in Kurg, near Goa that had stocks in which you can see similarities to German petronels. These Goan made guns were then taken by Portuguese traders across South East Asia, each country putting their own spin on the basic model. When the Portuguese reached China and Japan, both countries adopted the same gun but added their own modifications - in the case of the Japanese this was primarily the substitution of pins and other fastenings in place of screws. Ian Bottomley

Cutting at tsuba, whether of copper and iron, as well as helmets sitting on a section of tree trunk has little validity in reality because the object being cut is absolutely rigid. Were someone holding the sword, any blow would force the sword and tsuba to move in the direction of the cut, reducing the force of the cut. The same applies to helmets, the blow forcing the head to move downwards until the energy of the blow is reduced sufficiently for the muscles in the neck and body to resist it. Sadly the only valid test would be for someone to actually hold the sword or wear the helmet - tests not to be undertaken lightly. Ian Bottomley

All, Although this is probably a little off topic, I think it relevant to Ford's opinion on the part played by aesthetics during the Sengoku Jidai and by Hosokawa Tadaoki in particular. Early in my studies of Japanese armour, when information was far less readily available in the West than it is now, I was rather confused by the fact that several styles were labelled 'Etchu ... this' or 'Etchu...that'. Not unnaturally I leaped to the erroneous conclusion, that there must have been armourers in that province who had introduced or devised these innovations. Now of course I know it was Hosokawa Tadaoki who had devised the etchu zunari helmet and etchu suneate and that they were so-named after his court title Etchu no Kami. These two innovations were primarily practical, but he also introduced others in the design of armour that had no practical function whatsoever. One was the lacquering and lacing of the left front gessan in a decorative style, usually gold lacquered laced with red, even though the remainder of the armour was black lacquered and laced. His reasoning being that this was the element you presented to the enemy in face to face combat and should therefore appear 'glorious' to indicate your appreciation of beauty to your enemy. He also favoured large, delicate helmet crests that would be easily damaged in action and present a romantic appearance as the warrior returned home after a battle. Ian Bottomley

A few years ago I bought a rather nice tachi koshirae for the Royal Armouries collection from the sale of the Tokyo Sword Fittings Museum stuff. It was catalogued as a 19th century copy of a Muromachi mount, but I suspect it might be earlier. The hilt was done katatemaki in a variegated braid with the menuki completely covered and appearing as bumps on either side. From the shape of the bumps I thought I could deduce the menuki might be shaped like uma jirushi or similar, but an x-ray showed they were the fairly standard riding whip / helmet, sode / saihai pattern. Ian Bottomley

Gents, I reply to Brian's request for things to look out for here are a few pointers: 1. With masks, always look at the inside if you can. A real mask was heavily 'filled' and smoothed out so that it didn't rub the skin. Modern fakers take short cuts and don't bother. You can often see the separate 'teeth plate' riveted on, or the ends of the riveted hooks showing inside. On a real mask it should all blend into one smooth interior. 2. There are plenty of old masks about that have lost their noses that form a base from which to create a fake. Look at how the line of the nose of this example fails to blend in with the top edge of the mask - the upper edge of the nosepiece meets the upper edge of the mask proper at an angle rather than flowing into each other. 3. The hooks on the cheeks of many real masks, but not all, actually sit on a washer to distribute the stresses since the metal is quite thin on the cheeks. Same with any studs on the chin. They should also be properly shaped rather than knocked up out of a bent nail. 4. Be suspicious of tengu masks. Tengu nosepieces are far easier to make than regular noses. Making a regular nose is a very skilled job requiring expertise in repousse to get the relief of the nose above the plane of the upper lip. Some real noses that are lacquered have the septum between the nostrils formed as a tab that is bent down and riveted to the lip, but they are still well shaped and when lacquered this is hidden. A tengu nose is more of a simple folding job with bulges on each side since there is no 'base' in it. 5. Look at the tare / yodarekake on this one. The rims around the upper edges of the plates are dreadful. They should be neat, smooth and in proportion to the size of the plates, not a series of thick blobs. 6. Finally look at the ears on this one. They are very badly shaped, especially at the top and back edge. Real masks have well shaped and hammered ears with subtle curves, not flat ugly flaps riveted to the back edge. Hope that makes sense. Ian Bottomley

Oops - you are right mea culpa. That is one very deceptive image. I had to take a similar second look when I was mounting the famous painting of Honda Tadakatsu for an exhibition. His tachi and what seems to be his wakizashi are obvious, but then you see this tiny tanto and realise his 'wakizashi' is really an uchigatana, but worn edge down. Ian Bottomley

Eric, Curtis, What an interesting painting! Look carefully at the wakizashi the gent is holding. The kogai points downwards Ian Bottomley

Edward, Your tachi may well have a reasonable blade. Remember what the situation was at the time your sword was assembled. The wearing of swords had been banned and the military class had been abolished and their stipends ended. I used to have a book written by the Bishop of Durham who was in Japan at this time and he comments that the antique and curio shops were awash with armour and swords that were so cheap he bought a load of stuff and shipped it home. When this initial surplus was becoming depleted, the dealers still had mountains of odd parts that could be put together to keep the trade going. They also had available, access to the craftsmen who could assemble these pieces, or indeed make new items in the styles that sold best (they could even make complete armours in the style worn by daimyo using some old parts such as sleeves and helmet bowls). If the tourists wanted court swords with the kamon of the Tokugawa on them - no problem, but they had to be made down to price that gave all involved a profit. So instead of shakudo mounts with gold rims and kamon, brass, washed with silver and partially gilt would be preferred. Shin shinto blades, irrespective of who made them or their quality, were new and would not have the sales potential of older blades. So look at the blade of your sword very carefully - you may well have something we now regard as high quality. Ian Bottomley

Edward, It is not easy to judge the exact age from the photographs you have posted, but your ito-maki-no-tachi koshirae appears to be either Meiji period or possibly early 20th century. Had it been an older mount, the various fittings would probably have been decorated with kamon rather than the simple engraved scrolls I can see on the ashi. This type of mount was for formal wear by the wealthy and hence desired by the 19th century tourists to Japan. Since the supply of real swords of this type were in very limited supply, so the artisans of the day filled the need. During the 20th century quite a number of similar swords were made for the accession of the Emperor Showa (Hirohito). These tend to have plain mounts so I am guessing yours is in fact late 19th century. Ian Bottomley

Brian, Please forgive me for not listing the sites as you suggested. I hesitated to do so without the owner's permission whilst a sale was still in the offing. I then reflected further and came to the conclusion that maybe, just maybe, the seller of the helmet was trying to maximise his chances of making a lot of money by not only auctioning the thing, but also letting someone else put it on eBay at a vastly inflated price to see if a fish bit. However after reading Eric's note it seems, sadly, that I was right to be suspicious and am probably right in my conclusions. So dear members - beware high priced buy-it-now offers unless you know the vendor. Ian

Christian, There is yet another version of that 'monkey mask' in which the leather still has some dark fur on it. One of the 'collectives' is displaying it, as the mask of an armour at $35,000. The two you list, at $50,000 and $55,000, are actually the same item, note the small patch of missing paint between the eyes, and have been made into a helmet by adding a shikoro. George, I take your point but in the case of the helmet I quoted how can that item be being sold by a normal auction whilst at the same time being offered for sale at buy-it-now in other places? As for the monkey, I suspect the second of Christian's references is to the actual owner. His site appears to be a genuine collective. If you click on the 'other items' for the first reference there are 16 pages of high priced stuff of all kinds - the only common theme being the prices. Ian

All, Further to my earlier rant on this subject, I have since learned from someone far more well versed in web-lore than myself has done a trace on these collectives and finds they all emanate from the same source. None of the several 'antique centres' or 'antique collectives' actually exist. The postings to eBay come from a seller of jeans and trainers who is becoming a very prolific seller of good antiques acquired from Japanese auctions. He only buys of course if he has had a prior purchaser with his buy-it-now offers. Have a look on eBay at the buy-it-now offers and you will see just what a busy little bee he is. Ian Bottomley