IanB

Piers, I assume so yes. There are rivets of course but they are countersunk. Terms like go-sho-zan, hei cho zan and the like are proably all inventions of Edo armour makers to glam up their products. Ian Bottomley

Further to Piers' comments. Years ago when writing a book which Dr. Sasama kindly agreed to advise on, came across the term an 'hour of the dog' helmet. The answer to a query was that by that time of day te stars are visible - so its a helmet with visible rivets. Ian Bottomley

Just an update. Once again I can report that there has been no abuse and we seem to be able to keep up with queries. Can I also extend a welcome to all - beginners, experts and even his dog. Just keep firing the questions. Ian Bottomley.

My mistake. Nevertheless an ugly enough critter to give me the wobbles. Ian

These creatures were supposed to be responsible for causing earthquakes I believe. Ian Bottomley

I have today deleted posts that were using this forum to promote membership of a society and its forum. The NMB Katchu section exists to answer questions about armour or to elicit comments. it does NOT exist as a venue for advertising a forum that is only available to paying members. Should members of that society wish to contribute to a question on armour, or make a valid comment they are perfectly free to do so providing their post is free of promotional material. Ian Bottomley Moderator.

Simon, You will find many people in the armour world who are decent, honest and do try to help people whenever they can. Sadly the internet is inhabited by a spectrum of people with views that are at odds with that philosophy. Brian has been very tolerant on this forum and has put up with all manner of petulant attitudes and behaviours. All I can say is that it saddens me as much as it irritates him. Some of what is happening is the result of an inflated ego and some an attempt to provoke - all of which are not worth bothering about in the long run. Ian Bottomley

Not an antiquity, but at the other end of the spectrum was an armour I bought from Yahoo Japan, parts of which were fibreglass. I had to cut a chunk out of the helmet bowl to prove it was fake and get my money back. They had made casts of both the inside and outside of the helmet bowl and bonded them together, even mixing iron filings with the resin so that it attracted a magnet. Annoying really because the dou was real and rather nice. There are some clever fakers out there. Ian Bottomley

Luc, I agree that it would be totally wrong to remove an ukebari and I have never suggested otherwise. I also agree that a Saotome helmet is easy to recognise, if you know what to look for, and like you I was first taught what to look for by Dr. Orikasa. You will note I always attributed his research in my posts. What I do not do, like some, is make simple statements such as ' It is by the Haruta.' or some such and always say why I come to the conclusion I have. You accuse me of basing my writings and lectures on the studies of shinsa or on the discoveries of others. Of course I do and so do you and every other scholar, that is how all knowledge is accumulated and propagated. However, when I know who did the research or first made the discovery it I say so as I did in my post above. If you Iook at my published work you will see that I always include attributions where I know the author of the knowledge I quote. In the first book I co-authored that was written in1988 I was careful to state the source of most of the information that it contained was given to us by Mr. Sasama, who was even kind enough to write a forward for it. Again in my research on the diplomatic armours sent to Europe there are full references as there should be. Anyone who studies any subject uses the ideas and conclusions that have been made by others previously. The old saying that 'we stand on the shoulders of giants' is absolutely correct. There is however a time and place whether references are justified or not. If someone asks for a translation of a mei, it is sufficient to give that and state what details are known about the smith rather than quote a load of references as to which dictionary the kanji were looked up in or which book contained the details. The point I was making in my comments in the above post was that the expertise the shinsa panel who wrote the origami was hardly profound. It said it had 62 plates - yes we can count, it was a suji bachi kabuto - yes that is rather obvious (but I do not know who first decided that these were called that) and that it was mid Edo - yes I concede a valid opinion based on previous experience. I think even you would agree it is hardly great expertise. Ian Bottomley Member of the Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenkyu Hozon Kai

Steven, I do not know for certain as it was the conservation people who did it, but the usual way is to cut the rust off with scalpel followed by waxing. Ian

David, Can I ask if the ukebari (lining) of your helmet is intact? If it is, I suspect the shinsa panel decided not to stick their collective necks out because they were unable to see the inside of the bowl and would not take the risk of possibly being proved wrong. It is much safer to just to state that it is a 62 plate suji bachi - a blindingly obvious piece of information that is not worth the ink it was written with. So much for the value of that particular shinsa and the 'expertise' involved. It is the equivalent of submitting a mumei sword for shinsa and getting back a beautifully written paper telling you it is a 'katana blade'. Since you ask, and please bear in mind I am working from photographs, My first thought was that it is by one of the Saotome smiths because the plates between the suji appear in the images to be slightly rounded - a feature the Saotome employed. However, they did not file down the suji (the standing flange at the rear edge of each plate) as the approached the top on their helmets that on yours are. Dr. Orikasa who did an amazing amount of research on Saotome bowls states that only 9% of Saotome smiths put the front shiten no byo (the standing rivets on the sides of the bowl) on the 9th plate which yours has. Having eliminated the Saotome I would suggest it has to be Myochin work, some of whom did the S sectioned plates. The problem here is that there are hundreds of them. In fact I now suspect they actually ran a franchise system. So what we need is a Myochin who did S shaped plates, positioned the shiten no byo on the 9th plate and even more unusually only drilled 1 hole through the front of the haraidate (the crest holder). Not a great deal of help and in fact all negative, but it has narrowed the field a bit. Ian bottomley

Ken, I once had a helmet that behaved in a similar way. There were tiny rust pits that whatever I did to stop them would persist in producing red rust. I know this is going to sound lunatic, but it may be a living organism. At the Royal Armouries Museum we had an outbreak of what we described as 'concentric rust' that started on a German breastplate in stores. By the time it was noticed it was about 2" diameter and showed irregular concentric growth rings and looked like the surface of a bracket fungus you get on old trees. This prompted a serious search amongst the thousands of bits of armour in stores and yes, we found a few other examples After a great deal of investigation that involved a university (can't remember which), it was found to be a micro-organism that metabolised iron - deriving its energy by converting iron to the oxide. On armour it was easy to just clean it off and wax the area, but it had etched the surface. I suspect the so-called 'spider rust' you occasionally find on blades that form branching patches of dark rust is related. I am not saying your problem is the same but it is something to bear in mind. Ian Bottomley

I feel sure that members of this forum will be grateful of this offer, or they can ask here and I will do my best to answer their question. Ian Bottomley Member of 日本甲冑武具研究保存会 Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenkyu Hozon Kai

John, I thank you for what I am certain is your well meant invitation. Ian

You will note the post from Shogun8 which I think gives members some insight into the personal animosity between contributors. I do not condone personal attacks which is why I deleted some of the previous posts. Can I please appeal to all to stop and curb your impulses to attack. If you have a grievance, and my plea is to those on both sides of the argument, the sensible approach is to ignore the other person. What should matter is the subject of Japanese armour, all of whom involved in this matter has knowledge they can contribute. Ian Bottomley

I have just deleted a considerable number of post which were little more than personal attacks that have no place on this Forum. I feel it only right that having been a member of this forum for a considerable time that I should add a comment or two on the background to the posts I have deleted. Prior to and during my employment at the Royal Armouries in the UK I visited Japan on many occasions making friends with both collectors and restorers of armour there. Having retired, the internet has allowed me to keep in touch with happenings as did my membership of the Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenjyu Hozon Kai. For a considerable time there existed a Japanese Armour Forum, financed by Dave Thatcher (that is now defunct) that led to forum members meeting in Florence for symposium that included full access to the collection in the Stibbert Museum organised by a member who was a curator there . I subsequently organised a similar weekend gathering in Leeds that included a tour of the Royal Armouries. More recently certain European members of the Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenjyu Hozon Kai on visiting Japan have attended meetings of the Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenjyu Hozon Kai and were elected as Board members, These same people have now set up a Japanese Armour Society Forum on the internet that is only accessible to members of that association, yet insist it is to spread knowledge about armour. Despite being members of Nihon Katchu Bugu Kenjyu Hozon Kai access is being denied to Dave Thatcher, and incidentally myself since I am regarded as his friend. An absurd situation.

Looks small enough to be a makura yari for use indoors. Ian Bottomley

Peter, The problem with replica armours is that they are not real and have odd features thought up by their makers . On a real kote these ties are fastened to the fabric not the metalwork, the rear one longer than the other so that you can run the rear one under the opposite armpit and tie them on your chest. If there are toggles on the metalwork of the kote they would fasten to loops on the underside the watagami of the dou and often pass through loops on the sode as well so that they hold those as well. Ian Bottomley

Used by the Maeda of Kaga province amongst others. Ian Bottomley

Darius, Rattan is readily available in craft shops in long lengths for the basket making fraternity. It is far too thick for tsuka maki, but it could be split. I suspect the original was finished by pulling through a draw-plate before giving it a coat of lacquer. Having said all that I should hate to try using it. I once did a jabara wrap, ordering the material from Japan and finding to my horror it came as two separate hanks that had to be sewn together before using. Then struggling with 4 or 5 lengths side by side - not easy. Ian Bottomley

I have seen these, not on a sword but on the mekugi of a gun - just trivial little copper tacks with rounded silver heads. Ian Bottomley

Ken, I once watched a video of guy gilding the decorative copper plates off a building. He cleaned the copper then washed it over with mercuric nitrate solution which left a film of mercury on the copper, then laid a sheet of gold leaf on the top and heated it over burning charcoal. Needless to say he was outside when he was doing it. Ian Bottomley

Ken, Japan has / had an abundance of copper and until recently zinc was almost impossible to produce as the metal as it is volatile and vapourises as it is being reduced. Making brass (latten) in Europe involved adding a zinc ore to copper so that the zinc dissolved in the copper as it was reduced from the ore. Prof. Gowland in the 19th century did a great deal of analysis of Japanese alloys and mentions 'brass' only briefly - once as metal for coinage, a vase and as sentoku which is a copper, tin, lead, zinc alloy. Ian Bottomley

Ken, What appears to be brass is more often gilded copper. I have several made in this material that I know are original - one ridiculously tiny pair of kuwagata (only about 8cm across) with a kirimon between them actually all takes apart but why you would want to do so escapes me. Wood and rawhide are also common enough, both being gold lacquered in the main. If the one you refer to is very corroded I would leave it. The gilding is inevitably porous and the corrosion products leach out onto the surface. Attempts to clean it will probably strip off the remaining gilding. Ian Bottomley

A former member of our local ToKen has (had) an ivory mounted tachi of superb quality. The carving of the scabbard, which was not done in sections but using the full length of the tusk, really was exceptional. The only thing that let it down was that the unsigned blade had 6 hagire to make it fit the curve of the scabbard. Ian Bottomley