Bruce Pennington

Thanks guys! I agree with John - I doubt Mantetsu would put their name on a blade that wasn't made their way.

Greg, I still don't know who or what "Tsukuro" is?!

Poor guy didn't know how to mount the NCO tassel, but with that as the only image, seems proper. Wonder if he'd sell me that tassel!!!

Greg, I'm not familiar with a Mantetsu blade marked "Mantetsu Kitae Tsukuru Kore". Do you have an example? I have read that Mantetsu's not labeled "Koa Issin" were made in Tokyo, but I don't know that for a fact. Like Ohmura-san said at the end of the article posted by Dave, he didn't know the difference in quality of the 3 types, so I don't know how one would value one over the other. Personally, I like the ones with the slogan, but that's a personal preference and no statement about quality. My gut tells me any blade made by Mantetsu is a high quality blade. There was a wait-list of officers wanting these blades.

Apologies to anyone who's already read my deleted post! I had posted a gunto that I thought was an example of an NLF gunto with poor tsuba and rewrapped ito. Bob Coleman, at Wehrmacht-awards, corrected me and pointed out it was a 19th century blade/tsuba remounted for WWII in army fittings. Disregard!!!

I just got a jar of it and used it on my NCO tassel straps! Good stuff!

Roger, I agree with Hamfish - that a real gem!!! I'm drooling! If you don't already know about these here is a good place to start: http://ohmura-study.net/957.html You will find a chart on page 5 that tells you the meaning of the arsenal, inspector and manufacturer stamps.

I think DaveR first showed this picture on another thread, but Jareth at Warrelics brought it up again. The third gunto from the top seems to have a double-ringed ashi like our NLF gunto. While ashi made specifically to go under leather saya cover tended to be quite varied, I cannot find a reference of one with a double loop. All seem to have a single loop, wide or skinny, around the saya. If anyone has a reference showing a double-loop under-leather ashi style please let me know. If not, this could be an actual photo of the NLF style gunto.

Ian - I agree that Bob Coleman's theory may be correct. But until we have evidence to support or contradict it, it's just that - a theory. What we are doing here is investigating the issue and looking for evidence. If you have some (your anectodal experience counts) evidence to contribute, either way, I'd love to see it! Dave - The first looks like a navy guy with a civilian gunto. I don't think I've seen that before! I don't see why they couldn't do it considering that the IJA was allowed to. The second could be a navy seaman with his own army gunto, or it could be a guy on leave, holding his brothers gunto, or messing around at an army barracks with friends. HOWEVER, F&G had a photo of several naval officers, one of them actually wearing a shingunto. So, Iike we seem to have to learn over and over - Never say never, or always!!!

Douglas, You know, of course, that you're not going to get away without showing us more of the blade and saya!!! Does it have matching #s on the drag? How long - 36" or 39"? The 39 (Ko) was for cavalry, the 36 (Otsu) for foot soldiers.

Thanks Douglas! Yes, seems to have the same one-piece fuchi/seppa. Very unique tsuba though! Now that we are gathering more examples into the same discussion, I guess we are starting to see some variation - sharkskin saya, crescent moon tsuba. Yet, these variations, so far, are the same variations one would see in any gunto where the Japanese soldier purchasing it, has the option of personalizing it. So far, these variations, to me, tend to support the war-made, soldier personalized theory of these gunto.

Douglas, great post! Two important things you said: 1. The one-piece fuchi/seppa is significant. This is not a standard item that was being manufactured for other gunto. The Japanese Sword Co was not likely to find a room full of these things. I agree, they were most likely made specifically for this style gunto. 2. You said the "paint" is wearing off the metal fittings? Does anyone know if gilding can wear off? If so, can you be sure it's paint?

I'm still in the investigation stage of this, and am posting on 5 forums, so forgive me if you see this on other website forums, but I'd like to spread a wide net, so to speak to gather more input. Also, the 2 pictures I tried to imbed in the discussion won't post that way, so they are added as attachments. If you are able to help with either of the 2 requests below, please let me know: Collectors of WWII gunto are well aware of the strange arrangement often called “Marine Landing Sword” or “Navy Landing Sword”. As we all know the first name is bad because the Japanese did not have a Marine organization in WWII. I will use the second, or “NLF”, for this discussion simply to have a name to use. Pictured below, in all I’ve seen, they have a stainless-steel (or their version of it in the ‘40s) marked with a Toyokawa Navy Arsenal stamp. They are usually unsigned, but I have seen 2 with kanji – one was signed, and the other simply read “resident of Nara.” The koshirae are predominantly naval, but lack the rising sun seppa and have bright gold army fittings on the saya, including a single ashi (belt hanger). Fuller, in “Japanese Military and Civil Swords and Dirks,” discusses naval forces working with land forces, calling them Naval Landing Forces, and shows a picture of navy officers wearing uniforms that are a combination of army and navy items. One officer is wearing an army gunto (pg 65). In several places in the book, he discusses how widely varied NLF gunto seem to be in fitting arrangements. But he devotes a full page, pg 138, to this style gunto and discusses various theories about it, but concludes that it is his opinion they are “post-war assemblies.” In discussing this style on Wehrmacht-Awards.com, a very knowledgeable and well respected member, Bob Coleman relayed the following: 04-09-2017, 06:21 PM #8 Bob Coleman Member Bob Coleman is offline Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NATURE'S WONDERLAND Posts: 4,843 The naval sword is of the type put together from left over parts and sold post war as souvenirs to GI's by Japan Sword Company, which is still in business today in Tokyo. I have purchased four of these from Korean War vets who all gave me the same information as to where they acquired them. Tell tale signs are the single hanger, lacquer scabbard, solid iron tsuba without the sun ray plates and gilt painted fittings. All four that I saw were unsigned stainless steel blades with an anchor stamp and the end of the tang roughly snapped off. All four I bought also came with a cheap brown cloth sword bag. In reply, “Sengoku” added: Sengoku New Member Sengoku is offline Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Leeds UK Posts: 44 I have actually come across a reference to the occupation authorities approving the use of old stock to produce souvenirs for allied troops, and keep the artisans working and earning. I don't have any links to hand though. I tried to contact The Japanese Sword Co, in Tokyo, but they have no published email address. I did make contact via Facebook's Messenger and offer the following exchange: My first request is: Their final statement clearly got lost in translation – if there is someone who could speak and write Japanese, would you be willing to write in Japanese, a request to answer in Japanese? You could send it to me, I’ll copy and paste, and when they respond, I’ll bring it back to you for translation. My second area of investigation involves Bob Coleman’s feeling that all the metal parts were painted gold. I have found one owner, who happens to be a metallurgist, who checked and found his army fittings were indeed electro-gilded using brass (not gold), not painted. So my second need is for another owner of this style, to check the gold-colored coating on the army fittings to see if it is painted or gilded. I know an old AF buddy that owns one, and am checking with him, but if there are more out there who can check, more information is better! Here’s my thinking: While Bob’s information gained from his purchases are without question, all it actually tells us is that 3 guys bought gunto in this style from The Tokyo Sword Co. It doesn’t tell us if the gunto were obtained, as is, by the company and then sold, or as Bob suspects, the company obtained supplies of parts and assembled them. Sengoku’s info adds to the possibility that Bob’s theory is correct, but still doesn’t prove that it was done. On the other hand, the evidence from my friends’ gunto is beginning to show that the army parts are electro-gilded, not painted. There are only 2 choices on how this happened – 1. Japanese craftsmen, during the war, gilded these parts to go on navy gunto; or 2. The Japanese Sword Co paid someone to electro-gild these parts to create souvenirs. To me, the gunto we have seen are all very uniform in appearance. It seems to me that pieced-together items would have more variation. Although, this could be understandable if The Japanese Sword Co obtained a large supply of fittings and blades made by a single manufacturer. There have been no known photos of this style in use, or in surrender piles, however the canvas same’ and newness of parts points to late-war, 1945ish, if these were war produced, so that wouldn’t be unexpected. All the blades I’ve seen are immaculate and clearly never saw action.

We will need pics of the tangs of the officer gunto. The smith names are there and you might find out you've got a real gem in hiding there. No need to see the tang on the NCO as they weren't signed. Love to see that serial number though, OMG!

If you can get it under $400 USD, I'd buy it for the NCO leather tassel with buckle!!! I still need one!

There is one like yours: Hosowani Uramitsuaoi

That's a high quality gunto! Can you show us pics of the blade and Tip! Please!

Ok! The "mystery" develops - more evidence to examine! My friend says the army parts are 100% gilded. The nakago looks brand new and has kanji. If anyone can translate, please help! UPDATED: New look of the nakago is because the blade is stainless steel! Ha! Should have thought of that! Kanji reads: "resident of Nara." (thanks to Guy at Wehrmacht-awards forum)

Stephen, Sharp as a tack!!! Yes, F&G, called it "rare".

Ok guys, here's one just posted with the writing in Japanese!(by Dave "AnAmNeSiS"; http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/22359-just-want-to-share-my-kai-gunto-navy-officer-sword/) If you look closely, you can see this is stuck to an eel skin or sharkskin covered saya, which was an expensive upgrade, unlike the sayas discussed above.

Dave, nice meeting you too! I really enjoy these gunto and our conversations about them. Shame we all live around the globe, making a real meeting impossible. On the other hand, the web is allowing a bunch of guys like us to meet from all around the globe! Yup - Seki emblem at the top. Interesting that the rest of the sticker is in Japanese. I think the ones on the earlier thread were in English??? I'll check. It only means that is where the fittings were made. The gunto could have been bought at an officers' club somewhere else, though.

I've asked a good friend, who is a metallurgist, if he would examine the army fittings that are bright gold to see if they were painted, as Bob Coleman felt, or gold-gilded. I feel that if they are gilded, then it implies these parts were being worked during the war. I don't know how easy or difficult the gilding process is, but it's not something I picture a post-war sword company doing. I'll update when I get word, or maybe he'll jump in the conversation.

Dave, Great find! Both the blade and the fittings are gorgeous. I couldn't find any references to this swordsmith either, but like stated above, there were hundreds of smiths working during the war. I would also like to see a close-up of that gold label sticker. I've seen a forum discussion of scabbards with stickers like this and they were all from the Seki area.

I attempted to chat with the Japanese Sword Co via Facebook's Messenger. Their first response was that they don't do that kind of thing. I replied that maybe it was done after the war to avoid post-war laws about selling war weapons, and the mix of navy and army parts might have qualified the gunto as a souvenir/art sword rather than an official weapon. Their reply got seriously lost in translation, but they seem to have been saying: "Yes, this is something you should share with your collector friends." Dave, maybe it's my eyes, but I can't find any of the NLF style gunto in those photos. Do you see one in there? If Bob Coleman is right (and I respect him highly as someone who lived and trained in Japan), then it seriously changes the meaning of the NLF style gunto. Although, clearly the blades and koshirae parts are still legit Japanese items make for war, they would not have been something actually used during the war. I'm still puzzled, though, by someone's post a while back, that he had a relative who had served in the war, and post-war Japan, and had seen a warehouse full of this style gunto. This would support the idea that they were being produced this way late in the war. If this is correct, then maybe the Japanese Sword Co. got ahold of this supply and truly were selling them after the war. This wouldn't change the somewhat increased value (in my mind), since they were being intentionally made this way in the war effort. Either way, still Japanese WWII items.

Like me - slow but trainable!