Bruce Pennington

Incredible accuracy! But they still puzzle me - why go to all that effort to manufacture something that well and still not pay attention to simple detail like the color of the paint?

Navy Arsenal stamp at the top of the nakago, not enough view to see which one. Unusual single hanger. Maybe the other one was removed. Could have had a leather combat cover, but now gone. Price is actually a little low for a Kai-gunto.

Flemming, I, like several others are puzzled by the unusually small nakago (tang). Would you do us a favor when the gunto arrives, of taking the kisaki off and getting some good pics posted of that area where the tang meets the blade? The sword clearly has a hamon. I'm not expert on that aspect of Japanese swords, so hopefully, we can get the real pros to evaluate when you get it home and take more pics. Don't be concerned about the skeptical comments. Some folks are offset when they see something unusual. I've seen enough to know that, while there IS a standard these go by, there are always exceptions. Their concern is that the fakes are so prevelant, it is a constanct battle identifying them and weeding them out. Yours does not look like a fake.

Fleming, That's "58". Numbers were used to keep parts together, since they were fitted and sized to each gunto.

Ok, found it - the last one is Haruhisu. Haven't personnally seen one from that smith, though. and a correction to my reference to F&G above - that page came from Slough.

Frank (sorry I missed seeing your name the first time!), I agree fully. There are other forums that specialize in swords of other countries that might be able to lock in the ID of your sword, but I'd say you nailed it down pretty good! I'm sure I can speak for everyone here when I say that we agree with your horror at the things done in the name of war. Anyone who cares about right & wrong, about humanity, would. But to say that one loves the craftsmanship of a sword or gun or a crescent wrench, isn't saying that they agree with terrible things done with them. But I wouldn't lump all soldiers of any war into a cookie-cutter mold. It is well known today, that most German and Japanese troops were just trying to serve their country and the people they loved (and many weren't there by choice). There were evil people doing evil things, but there were plenty of good people serving right next to them. Try reading "Baa, Baa, Black Sheep," "Flyboys" and "Unbroken." You will see examples of both.

Hi fschwep! Your blade is not Japanese but it is a nice one made in another nation, maybe during WWII. Many nations made their own swords during the war. Some of them during Japanese occupation, and were used by indigenious soldiers fighting for/and against the Japanese. Here is a link of a thorough discussion of this very subject: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/19199-was-there-any-type-of-production-of-Japanese-swords-in-occupied-territories-during-wwii/?hl=java&do=findComment&comment=197457 I consider it an honor to be the caretaker of these weapons. Many men gave their lives selflessly to fight for their people. These weapons represent the honor and sacrifices they lived by.

Thanks Stegel! I added that to my collection. I have seen 2 or 3 Mantetsu's with W's but that's a good one to save! Fuller commented in his book that he thought it was struck in error, but I'm starting to see several of these, so it was clearly intentional. What I'd like to do next, is see if it's possible to get the locale, province or city the three known smiths were working in. Unfortunately, from the start, Fuller says they were unlisted. (actually there were four - Takehisa, Yoshiharu, Yoshitoni and (dang, I can't find it. His name started with an M, but I can't find the refernce)

Bill, you know what you have, don't you? It's a 1938, Dalian Factory stamped Mantetsu blade. According to Fuller&Gregory, the only year with that stamp, so RARE! Mantetsu blades used Manchurian steel produced by and for the South Manchurian Railway, and used for the Mantetsu blades, as well as shipped to Japan for use by other smiths.

Since we're on Mantetsu-to -- Reading my F&G, Fuller states that the Koa Isshin blades were made in Japan, while the Mantetsu (no Koa Isshin slogan) were made in Manchuria. Does anyone know WHERE in Japan the Koa Isshin blades were made?

I thought I might try to narrow down the district or province these smiths worked. It might add to the search for the origin of the W stamp. Here's the first hint I've found: "Stephen Oyabun Members 6,961 posts LocationI OWE WAY Posted 04 August 2009 - 11:20 AM Is that from a early F&G he may be from the Yoshichika group Yoshichika Ke (良近) The following smiths are members of the Yoshichika group: 1. Yoshichika (良近) 1.1. Nidai Yoshichika (良近) 1.2. Sukeyuki (介之) 1.3. Kiyonosuke (神之助) 1.4. Yoshiharu (義治) above from the Tokyo Kindai tosho index" Is it safe to say, assuming this is the same Yohiharu, that he was operating in the Tokyo area?

Found W stamps on just a few smiths, so far: Takehisa, Yoshiharu, and Yoshitani. (F&G, and JapaneseSwordIndex - http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/showa.htm Seems to be a pretty small group of blade manufacturers. Possibly the same inspector stamping the officer gunto of the smiths above was somehow invovled with some of the NCO production line as well.

I've gotten a close look at that fuchi. Comparing it to the clearly brass habaki and the copper handle, I'd say it looks more like copper than brass.

And again from Julian: A Tokyo First Arsenal beside the spiked circle. It's hard to see from this pick, but Fuller and Gregory have this same combo and the image inside the circle is "TO" meaning sword, but he states the stamp's origin is unknown.

And here is the replyy from George: george trotter Sai Jo Saku Members 2,096 posts Posted Yesterday, 12:44 AM Sorry, had some trouble (old and stupid)... The mark is that of Nakano Shoten, a sword shop of Tokyo. Here is a (cropped) advert from 1942, from p.204 of Dai Nihon Token Shoko Meikan 1942. The shop was in Kanda Ku, Higashi Fukuta cho and they had branches elsewhere. Hope this helps.

I'm copying this post from another thread because of the new (to this thread) stamp: he_ozzy_samurai Chu Jo Saku Members 36 posts LocationN.S.W, Australia Posted 28 April 2016 - 11:59 PM Hey guy's I purchased a couple tsuka's that have markings i have not seen or in positions not seen before? well by me anyways?,i have a few gunto's with arsenal markings on kabo,but normally with a star and circle with spikes on one side and tokoyo stamp on other, i had 3 of them from memory all the same,well these 2 handles i purchased seem a bit odd to me? one only has the 1 star stamp in the middle? and the other handle has what looks to me like E or some kind of symbol? as i said i had a couple of these i know these stamps are not that common but these 2 tsuka's are just strange to what i have had or seen,i only purchased them purely for the markings,can anyone help or explain what that back to front E symbol is?thanks guys' Julian

Julian, Fuller & Gregory, pg 61 has a pic of a Kabuto-gane with the exact combo of Tokyo First arsenal and "unidentified" spiky circle! He called it "uncommon." George, any info that you know of on that? Also, Julian, about the officer's club - all officers were required to buy thier own gunto and the primary source was the officer's clubs. There were 2 chains, one headed by Tojo and the other by Yamamoto! NCOs were issued their gunto. Guys, if you don't mind, I'd like to copy and paste these stamps on the pinned "Arsenal Stamps" thread. I don't think they have the Nakano Shoten or the spiky circle stamps?

Hamfish, I took me a while to think on it, but Kurt beat me to the idea - it's not the art of the swrord that makes it popular to those who love it, it's that it was a fabulous weapon. Everyone comes to collecting with their own personal tastes in mind.

Here's an article from a Japanese newspaper from WWII explaining that the gunto were highly prized back then: "Manchurian steel was highly prized by the Japanese swordsmiths as evidenced by the following article. Japanese-American Courier, Seattle, Washington, June 4, 1938 [Note: This article first appeared in Japan Times.] TOKIO -- Swords are still a prime necessity in war time, despite airplanes, armored tanks, machine guns and repeating rifles. It has been found, and the government has taken special steps, to see that officers have blades which will suit their needs. However, the blades they carry these days are not up to the standards of olden times, according to Hikosaburo Kurihara (see note), expert swordsmith, who recently returned from the Shanghai area, where with a party of smiths he has repaired 15,000 swords for Japanese officers. So great was the need found for this repair work that the master smith has gone to the North China area, where he will attend to the needs of the officers there. Manchurian steel has been found the best material for blades as proved by experience of officers in the Shanghai district, the expert said, and he recommended to the War Ministry that metal of that kind be used in future whenever found available. "We mended about 15,000 swords in Shanghai," the swordsmith said at his home in Hikawacho, Akasaka-ku. "Blades of good steel do not snap easily, as did some of those we found. I recommended to the War Ministry that they make available Manchurian steel to all the swordsmiths in the country. It is about as strong as any we know of." "An officer with a damaged sword, and who expects a battle next day is a pitiful sight. I saw many of them working late at night on their weapons, which may mean life or death to them." (3) [NOTE: Hikosaburo Kurihara was also known as Kurihara Akihide, the founder of the Nihonto Tanren Denshujo (Japanese Sword Forging Institute).]" From Japaneseswordindex.com: http://www.japaneseswordindex.com/koa.htm

I'm on the road and don't have my F&G or Dawson with me. The star is Tokyo First Arsenal and I know I've seen examples of that in one of the books. The other will take some of our Japanese kanji experts! I've seen one transtlated in the past that meant "Of the house of (name)". Someone will jump in and help!

Stegel, I'm on the road, hoping to be home late tonight, and I'll take a closer look at it. Here's a couple more pics I have on my tablet. One looks like copper but in the other shot, it looks brass, maybe with copper coating?

Wow, I realize, like Fuller of F&G said, there are exceptions to every rule. This is one of them. I've never seen one with the arsenal and manufacturer stamps in that order. They are normally the other way (pics below). Also, the Kokura stamp on the blade is on the wrong side. The blade and saya look correct and the tsuba is fatter than normal, but F&G has one like that too. Overall, I'd say this is legit and just stamped by an inspector with dislexia! I paid $2,400 for mine!

An interesting update from Nick Komiya from War Relics: "Thank you for the PM asking whether I could add anything to your subject of the W mark. I am not a swordsman, so I had no knowledge of this marking until you brought it up. The short answer is that I have no answer to your quest. Markings like these are not part of official specs, so generally speaking, chances of official documents revealing the identity is slim, which is similar to the situation of alphabetical hallmarks used by artisans on medals and orders. Another problem is that it appears to be a sub-level marking, not of a contractor, but possibly a subcontractor or an inspector mark, which are even less likely to appear in any records. It would not have been difficult if it were an official company trademark. For example, I was once asked by a collector about a rare 5th mystery contractor trademark that appeared on type 95 swords. This was not such a tall order, as it was only a matter of checking Army contractor lists by product. It turned out that the Kokura arsenal brought in a new contractor named Mizuno for a short while in 1942 and had them produce type 95s. However, the October report from Kokura Arsenal on production capacities of its contractors reported that they now decided to drop Mizuno due to poor results. By the way, the same October report says as of September of that year (1942) all Type 95 sword contractors were transferred away from Kokura to the jurisdiction of other arsenals (Suya, Iijima and Kobe were taken over by Tokyo, and Seki went to Nagoya arsenal). I just mention this as someone was wondering how the same marking could appear in connection with different arsenals. Mr. Ohmura, also states in his site that the purpose of the W mark is unknown to him. If he ended up totally empty handed, it is nothing that an outsider like me would want to undertake. One should have the integrity of clearly stating unknowns as unknowns instead of throwing around irresponsible theories and speculations that just hinder future breakthroughs. One last comment that I could add is that it is a fairly sure bet that the W stands for a name of a company or a person, like the W in a diamond for Wakase Gunto Manufacturing Co. Though theoretically it could stand for any name starting with Wa, Wi, Wu, We and Wo, luckily “Wa” is the only valid combination in the Japanese language. So listing up all the names starting with Wa in the Japanese alphabet listings of suppliers and contractors may be worthwhile. Though it may only be a subcontractor to a sword company, it may also appear as a contractor in its own right. There are many such lists in the archives, but a 1942 list I have only has 1 entry under Wa, a Wakatsu Steel Company in Fukuoka under the supervision of the Kokura Arsenal. My experience is that unanswered questions in one field tend to get answered when I am researching in some totally different field. So I will keep it in mind when I go about other research subjects."

John, I PM'ed you with contact info.

Thanks Ed. Looks like my next book purchase will have to be the Slough book! That's an interesting tip! Anyone have more about that, since I don't have a Slough yet?