Bruce Pennington

These seem to be showing up lately, each hotly debated simply because it IS possible, but unprovable.

Good eye on the missing seppa, Chris! I'm puzzled by the ashi. I didn't know the original NCO ashi were removable. Are they?

Thanks guys, glad I was wrong about the blade!

Mpjbay, It usually doesn't take this long to get replies on swords. I've waited a bit myself because I'm not really sure what to think about this item. The blade, at first glance, looks like something really old. But when I zoom in on the old patina on the tang, it has the appearance of something baked on, with bubble-holes. The blade shape seems right, but I'm bothered by the multiple diagonal file-like lines along the blade. There are spots on the blades where there are swirls, like Damascus steel. Damascus steel is popular with the Chinese reproductions, and was never used in Japan for war blades. It almost seems as if the manufacturere intentionally filed and sanded and scraped the surface to hide/mask the Damascus swirls. I will say that I'm not expert on the old swords prior to WWII, so I COULD be wrong, and wouldn't mind finding out that this is a really old sword! However, the scabbard is, shall I say Freaky! The metal fittings seem quite new, and they are on a bare wooden scabbard - no paint, no finish, and even some factory assembly-style markings on the outside. The crest on the metal fittings is a legitimate Japanese crest that can be found on websites dedicated to family crests, and seem to be well done. Sorry I can't do more for you, but I'm flummoxed by this baby.

Stephen, I'm really talking at the edge, or beyond, my experience/knowledge level on this. It would be interesting if anyone has a shrine sword with a Star stamp on it, or are they all without any stamps whatsoever.

Hopefully someone with more understanding of the history in Japan during this era will jump in, but the article I cited above points out that even “collectors“ in the 1930s were struggling to determine the difference between traditional and nontraditionally made swords. However from reading about the development of the military sword in this time, private orders of swords had fallen so badly that swordsmith as a profession had almost gone extinct. The military sword industry had to search to find enough skilled craftsmen that could make the old samurai style swords for them. And from there they rebuilt the industry.

Steve, From what I've read, it was law that all swords received a stamp if they were not gendaito: “Tang stamps were introduced precisely because swordsmiths and collectors could not distinguish the best quality non-traditional swords (i.e. ‘mill steel’ gendaito) from traditionally made swords. It was discovered that, as a result, some smiths were forging replicas of older swords, giving them false signatures (gimei), and passing them off as the real thing. Several smiths were subsequently arrested. Amidst mounting concern, the government passed a law in 1933 requiring all swords that were non-traditional in any way to be marked with a tang stamp, although the actual stamp used was left to the manufacturer. These stamps should not however be confused with the smith’s personal seal or ‘kokuin’. The system was not fully implemented until 1940. That means that there could be a fair number of swords of non-traditional manufacture not bearing tang stamps, of which some will be ‘mill steel’ gendaito. It would be fairly easy to differentiate between an oil-hardened sword and a traditionally made sword, even if the former lacked a tang stamp. However, there would probably be little or no chance of differentiating between a ‘mill steel’ gendaito and a tamahagane gendaito. It is not impossible that some examples have since received origami. Again, a togishi can remove a tang stamp so that it looks as if one was never there. Some smiths stamped their tangs very lightly, thus complying with the law, but making it easier for their customers to remove the stamp. The legislation produced a profusion of stamps, ranging from sword factory stamps, to the stamps of sword sellers. The commonest are illustrated at the beginning of this essay. The best known of these is the well known Showa stamp. This is a general army stamp; contrary to received wisdom, it is not an arsenal mark. The earliest known example dates from 1940." From Ryujin Swords Is it possible this law ONLY applied to swords made for the war effort?

That still could go either way. It is in a period when stamps were supposed to be used, both Showa and Star, and no one knows why blades came through unstamped.

I've got a Star-stamped Kanetoshi with a Seki stamp. Haven't come across one with Na, personally. The Seki stamp is on the nakago mune, though.

Something new coming to us from Neil (IJASWORDS): 3 stamps on the nakago mune of a Star-stamped Kanetoshi. The top, circled one is "Seki", but I can't find the other 2 anywhere.

Amandus, It's an imitation. Several key indicators. Good wall-hanger for $150, but I wouldn't pay more than that, and would'nt buy it if wanting a real one.

It is definitely pretty. I never discount showato. They can be made with just as much care and craftsmanship, but simply out of another form of steel. Yeah, I still get the numbers mixed up and have to look them up, sometimes! This one is "七", though, which is 7, so July. If you bring the smith name over to the "Translations" forum http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/forum/15-translation-assistance/ You'll get a quick translation. The first one is "Kane" but I'm not good at these and don't recognize the bottom one.

Chris, It is the inspector stamp for the Nagoya Army Arsenal. It means it passes inspection, but it also means the blade is not a traditionallly made blade. It's very beautiful, by the way! But probably made with non-Japanese steel, or with hydraulic hammer; something like that. You probably know the date, but in case you don't, it's July 1943.

Found this link on Gunboards. It's got a few stories from the war told by Japanese soldiers. Good reading: https://shatteredjewels.wordpress.com

Great pics Dan, thanks!

That's a GORGEOUS blade Steve!!! I'm thinking the majority of the white spots are Ohmura's referenced Mantetsu rust. I didn't see any spiderwebbing. Or at least I couldn't spot it. She's a real keeper!

Looks like this:

Sorry, I’m not sure what you mean by “bail”.

He has pics here: http://ohmura-study.net/136.html He also says rust on a Koa Isshin is white, so that may be all your seeing, though, the spiderweb blood stain, like John’s is white too, on the Mantetsu.

Chris, I agree on cleaning. It was my dad's though, and I'll never sell. I wanted to return it to as original condition as possible. Steve, Ohmura states that blood leaves a white stain on swords. Maybe that's what you're looking at on yours!

There are a few guys who part-out stuff. I'm thinking Ozzy_Samurai (or is it Ozzy_the_Samurai?) and DaveR. You also might try Crimson Mist at: http://www.cmmilitaryantiques.com/search.php?pcat=3.

Steve, You didn't say whether you needed translating on the nakago, but the serial number on the nakago mune is "Ta 181" (they used katakana on the mune). The date is amazingly identical to mine! "Spring 1941"; and the other side is "Koa Isshin Mantetsu". Not to worry on the nakago rust as that cleans up easily (though you don't intend to do so). You've probably seen the before and after on mine, but here's the nakago and the kissaki:

It is interesting, Ed. I've noticed a marked fall-off of Officer gunto prices over the last year or so.

I'm with John, stamping is the only thing I'm aware of that was mandated by law/edict. Nick Komiya might be a good one to ask, if it's something he's already found in his research.

Nice collection!