Bruce Pennington

I love it!!! Ha! And using the Japanese practice of creating a shorter name, taking the first syllable and last, combined .... we have ni-to! neeto, get it?!

Ok, Tom, we'll wait for your pics. I'll say up front, I'm no nihonto expert, nor a age/era one either. But look at the cross-section of this hole. That rust layer is THICK. The 3 holes on an old blade simply tell that it was refitted that many times over it's life, which is not unusual. That one offset is really odd, but the strange reshaping of the nakago may go along with that part of the story. Odd though. Tom - on the barrel screw, the picture you showed is the male side. It should screw into the female side of the other half on the other side of the kabutogane. Is there another half? On the green stuff, is it rust, or glue of some sort? I use a steel sanding sponge. It looks like a plastic sponge, but it's made to sand steel. You can very carefully work the specific area of the green stuff. When you put it back together, the order is simply dictated by size. The larger pieces are against the tsuba, and size down as you go, on both sides. I would keep the leather one because it goes with the saya. I wouldn't be bothered by the mismatch. Like someone said above, things get loose over time, and whether on the battlefield or post-war, seppa get added to tighten the fit. I've added some to a couple of mine that were missing seppa. I've got some spares I could mail you, if you like. Use what fits, then mail the rest back to me. PM me if you want to try it. These family blades were donated and/or bought by the thousands throughout the war. Newpaper articles went out to the public asking for donated swords. Govt orders were sent out specifying size and pricing. It doesn't surprise me that some may not get a high-quality refit for the war. There are many gunto circulating today, that have been thrown together by a collector or seller. And like Dave said, some G.I.s grabbed blades w/o saya, and searched until they found a saya that fit well enough. But, bearing in mind your father's story, I see no other explanation than poor war-refit, or battlefield repair.

DON’T clean the rust off the nakago. It’s one of the primary ways of judging age. I’d clean the green stuff off the tsuba, but be careful to only affect the green. I found out the hard way that the tsuba and seppa have colorations that come off very easily. You don’t want to lose that. I think there probably was some kanji where the end if the nakago is, but has been cut off when the nakago was shortened. Cool blade and agree with John, quite old.

Nice move, Tom! Now we wait!

Quite peculiar! Two options: 1. Grab the tsuba on both sides with both hands and rock the tsuba . I have dislodged stuck tsukas that way. 2. The barrel screw at the top unscrews. If it is through a hole in the nakago, removing it will free the tsuka. You will have to bend the sarute enough to get it off first. To have a hole that high is unusual for this type blade, common in Type 3, or contengency, blades. I would try it though.

Quite peculiar! Two options: 1. Grab the tsuba on both sides with both hands and rock the tsuba . I have dislodged stuck tsukas that way. 2. The barrel screw at the top unscrews. If it is through a hole in the nakago, removing it will free the tsuka. You will have to bend the sarute enough to get it off first. To have a hole that high is unusual for this type blade, common in Type 3, or contengency, blades. I would try it though.

Tom, Sometimes it’s necessary to grab the peg with pliers and pull it out. I have one that is that way. The wrap may be blocking its exit on the other side, or the holes in the tsuka and nakago aren’t aligned perfectly and the peg sits at an angle.

Alamo, Forum rules (plus we all like talking real people!) - go to your settings and put in a first name, or sign a name at the end of each post, thanks! Type 98 Japanese officer's sword in combat saya (scabbard). The combat saya often means there is an older blade in there. No way to know until you take out that bamboo peg holding the tsuka on the blade. Once that is pushed out, the handle and tsuba/seppa will all come off. Then you can get some good pics of the nakago (tang), blade pointed up. The fittings are nice, so there might be something cool under that tsuka!

Dave, I've never heard - how do you pin the age of a leather cover?

Yeah, I think that's called "Bubba-ayasugi"!

Dawson, Fuller, and Ohmura all refer to the "Mukden" or "Nan-man" arsenal. Located 10 miles north of the city, they also call it the South Manchurian Arsenal (not to be confused with the South Manchurian Railway Factory). Dawson says they made swords, but didn't know of what nature. Fuller says they used the "Nan" stamp. Ohmura associates both the Nan and Ren stamps with them, and believes they were involved with Mantetsu blades. None of them refer to the circled Mukden stamp seen on firearms and baynets, although Fuller shows the stamp in his chart, saying not all the stamps in the chart are seen on blades. This COULD be a post-war Bubba-job, as proposed by someone on Warrelics. It's dated and signed ('44 Kanesada), with no stamps on the nakago, so I can't imagine WHY a Bubba would create his own stamp and put it on the blade; although the Bubba's of the world have done some inconceivable things!

Came across this thread from 2016, on NMB (http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic...-quality-help/) with a stamp on the blade resembling the Mukden stamp found on firearms and bayonets, but it's not what I'm used to seeing. Anyone see this as a Mukden stamp, or is it something else? This is what the Mukden stamp looks like on firearms

I recall there are a few new guys starting their collections, and there are some who specifically collect Type 3 Contengency models, so I wanted to get the word to our group before it goes to a fleabay buyer. It's a 1945 Sukekuni, great condition. I've got pics on the For Sale forum: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28784-type-3-44-model-contengency-model-excellent-condition/ I don't normally sell my gunto, but this is for the Mrs for Mother's Day, so not much room for negotiation! {Brian (or Admin) if it's inappropriate to notify guys this way, on this forum, I understand, and will understand if you delete.}

Wow, that was originally one seriously long nakago! Agree with John on the saya. Ohmura has one the same color. I love the seppa. Wonder if they came from the "civilian" fittings?

Final installment on terms from Nick: "To a normal Japanese person, Nihonto 日本刀 simply means Japanese-style sword, in comparison to Yoto 洋刀 or Western-style sabers. But sword collectors developed the additional words you mentioned as collector jargon and then for gun and sword control laws a separate legal definition became necessary in connection with what constitutes artistic value. So meanings will change depending on whether you are talking with a layman, collector or lawyer, but Nihonto has the first meaning in 99% of the cases." So, it boils down to simply getting the group we converse with regularly to agree on terms. They, as all words, are created to convey an idea. They simplify. Instead of saying "I just bought my first Japanese sword made with tamahagane without any hydraulic hammers" we can say "I just bought my first nihonto" etc.

A follow-up from Nick: "Kyugunto" and "Shingunto" are not historical terms. Throughout Japanese military history, any outdated military sword was called a Kyugunto and the latest model a Shingunto. Thus the Type 32 was also naturally referred to as "Shingunto (new model sword)" when that was the current model. So what specific model you are referring to is all a matter of where you want to freeze the picture in the flow of time. Those using that lingo have decided to pin themselves down to 1945 and by doing so lose relevance to the modern day perspective and language. Current Japanese refers to Japan's WW2 military in its entirety as "Kyugun", so for a normal Japanese speaker all swords belonging to the IJA and IJN are "Kyugunto". I'm checking with him for clarity on Nihonto, Gendaito, and Showato.

Here’s the official word from Nick Komiya, Warrelics: “No, Gunto means "Military Sword" and refers to its whole structure "Lock, stock and barrel" so to speak. An Army sword is Rikugunto and by the same principle, a Navy Sword is Kaigunto. If you wanted to say "Military sword fittings" you would have to say either "Gunto no Gaisou" or "Gunto no Koshirae". Defining gunto as a "sword in military fittings" is also acceptable, but not really to the point.”

There are separate words for the blades in military fittings - nihonto, gendaito, showato - and these words apply regardless of the koshirae they are fitted out with. A family sword, whether 100 years old or 500, once bought buy or donated to the war department became a military possession, therefore an army sword or navy sword. A nihonto in military fittings is a gunto or kaigunto as is a showato in the same fittings. They have become war swords owned by the government - gunto.

Interesting David. I looked it up on The Japanese Sword Index and they agree: “GUNTO - army or military sword mountings” I had always been told that “gun-to” meant “army-sword” so it’s weird that the word is actually applied to army koshirae (KOSHIRAE - sword mountings or fittings). Seems odd.

A minor update on the Mantetsu mei dateline. I've found a '39, chopped to waki size, but having bothe the Dalian Railway Stamp AND the Koa Isshin mei. It's a Spring of '39 so there might have been a transition early in the year where both appeared together. So for now, here's the mei timeline: Showa 13 (1938) Winter - Dalian Railway Stamp; no mei Showa 14 (1939) Spring – Dalian Railway Stamp; 興亜一心 (Koa-Isshin) 満鉄作之 (Mantetsu Saku Kore) Showa 14 (1939) to Showa 16 (1941) : 興亜一心 (Koa-Isshin) 満鉄作之 (Mantetsu Saku Kore) Showa 17 (1942) : 興亜一心 (Koa-Isshin) 満鉄謹作 (Mantetsu Kin-Saku) Showa 17 (1942) to Showa 18 (1943) : 興亜一心 (Koa-Isshin) 満鉄作 (Mantetsu Saku) Showa 18 (1943) to Showa 19 (1944) : 満鉄鍛造之 (Mantetsu Tanzo Kore) Showa 19 (1945): 興南一誠 (Kou-nan issei) [only 1 example]

Is that chome flaking on the blade? I don't think I ever seen a chromed fake before. But if its just normal corrosion on steel, then never mind. The islanders of SE asia DID make their own swords during the war, so that's a possibility. It would be nice to know the the kanji on the habaki are legit or jibberish. Jibberish would lock it in as fake.

I was reviewing this discussion and noticed the hamon carries around the curve of the kissaki, meaning the tip wasn't shortened, so for the nagasa to be shorter than standard, someone had to move the hamachi and munemachi. This is not hard, I guess for a professional. Anyone know if there is a way to tell? I agree with Kurt that the mei is correctly placed around the mekugi-ana. Is there a standard distance from the ana to the machi? If the machi were moved, this might show in the measurement?

Update: Shared this discussion with Richard Fuller. He passed these pictures of a gunto with the identical set-up as Edward's. Here's his thoughts on it: "My guess is that was used by the Etajima Naval College or other naval education establishments for drill lessons but would need to be carried by adult students. Have not been able to find the significance of the foul anchor variations." This quote came with the pictures: "The plain anchor-in-circle is the cap badge of Navy Preparatory School students so it is possible this sword was owned by such a school. Possibly used for sword etiquette training or parade purposes. Ted Simpson, U.K."

Thanks Eric! Hate to say it, but I didn't even know there was a difference. It's a world I'm totally ignorant of. I'm sure you're right David, but I, for one, don't have the time, money, or interest. WWII militaria is all I can manage. It's like everything else, some people can stare all day at a Picasso - I'd rather look at a perfectly done Philipino painting of a dafodil. I see the beauty of nihonto, it's just not my area of interest.

Is it "Leo"? Need to go to settings and post a name for us, thanks. Both your examples are poor fakes, so it's a good thing you asked first! I agree with John that you CAN find something for $750, but not something in great shape. Even the NCO blades have gone up in the past year. You can find some Type 32s and Type 19s under that price. Both of Chris's recommendations are great. The auction houses I've shopped tend to sell at top dollar, so I doubt you'll get anything cheap that way. Crimson Mist sometimes has some reasonably price gunto: http://www.cmmilitaryantiques.com/search.php?pcat=3 Gunto Art Swords have quality gunto, but prices usually reflect that (I have bought 2 from him, at above market rates, but both were fabulous and I HAD to have them!): http://www.guntoartswords.com Here is one that is legit (I had to search through 4 fakes before I found this one!) https://www.ebay.com/itm/EXCELLENT-WWII-Japanese-Samurai-Sword-NCO-SHIN-GUNTO-Katana-World-War-2-BLADE/223497999128?hash=item340984d318:g:Oe0AAOSwUvVcxSFN&redirect=mobile