Bruce Pennington

This may be a slow thread to start as these gunto are pretty rare, but I thought I'd toss it out there: Dawson lists 8 emblems but states he knows of only the first 3 found on gunto - Japanese Govt Railways, South China Railway Co, and the SMR. I'm posting the chart along with a SCR emblem found on fleabay 9 years ago (link is already dead). Anyone have real examples? (I know we have lots of the SMR emblem. I'm really looking for all the others)

Forgive my ignorance of the old styles, but is that ito style normal?

Good example Stegel! I've seen a few of these over the past couple of years with that same serial number, or range. I was thinking the faker was making multiple blades with the same number, but after reading your post, I see I might have just seen the same fake 2 or 3 times as it changed hands.

Wow, Scott, that came out perfectly! Looks original. Nice job!

The “Z” appears to simply be bare metal where the tsuka rubs, wearing off rust. The stamp is more likely to be where I’ve circled. The tsuba stamp is “Gifu” which was a province where Seki was located. While required by law, stamping wasn’t practiced 100% of the time, and while rare, the stamps were sometimes removed.

Logan, I checked the item description. He didn’t say it was found on a battlefield, he just said it was found with a metal detector. It was simply something brought back from the war and got dumped on the ground or discarded for some reason.

Tsuba looks legit, a bit corroded from being buried in dirt. The Russians invaded Manchuria and made it all the way to Korea, including taking Mukden, where there was an arsenal (thought to be making Mantetsu blades, or at least finishing them). So there were plenty of Japanese swords that were carried home by Russian soldiers. This tsuba was no doubt part of their war souvenirs brought home.

Thanks JP, I appreciate it! But it is one I have already.

Nick Komiya says it’s a cherry blossom. I can see it now, but it’s crafted in a way I’ve never seen.

This koiguchi is on a mumei gunto being discussed on Warrelics http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/katana-inscription-cloth-help-730056-2/#post1957514 Any ideas what this is on the koiguchi where the cherry blossom should be? The blade is nothing special, an unsigned WWII factory blade, and fittings normal except for this and an extra thin tsuba. Ideas?

Thanks, great one! It's my first and only "No" serial number! And yes, the nakago looks quite worn! I don't see how a nakago could get so worn under a tsuka. I almost want to think it was previously heavily rusted and has been cleaned, but "cleaned" would look shiny and buffed, where this still looks old and just worn. Interesting one.

Neil, my feelings exactly! Just look at the NCO production for 1945 - they went from an average of 2,500 guntos/month to Jan 45 - 5,000 and Aug '45 - 10,000! This was the final year of the war when materiel shortages would have been at their highest level, yet the Govt was demanding that production be increased due to their fear of a looming Allied home invasion. They must have been scrambling to get their hands on any piece of koshirae they could find. As a side note: My early feeling that the mysterious NLF gunto (mixed navy and army) was late-war pieced together parts - falls apart in light of your collection. Your 3 are how things would look when peicing things together in desperation. The "NLF" gunto were to precisely uniform and really good looking. It's clear in comparison that they were newly produced for souvenirs.

I'm firmly on the fence (though wavering to fake). The mei and serial numbers are as good as any Mantetsu out there. New- I first thought "well, the polisher would have cleaned the whole thing, that's why it looks new." I checked my polished Mantetsu, and while he shined the nakago, there is patina still imbeded in the kanji cuts. Soooo, either the one in question was cut recently, and no patina, or the polisher REALLY cleaned the nakago - UNKNOWN. We have a sample of 2 (maybe 3), but both the current ones looks identical and too new. I'm saving this one like I did the last one - "under suspicion". I would love to see (assuming fakery) one come out with an identical serial number to an existing one in the database. But, there were approx. 38,000 of these made, with a database of 160, so the odds are in their favor right now.

Ibex, How about going to the settings section and inputing a first name so we can really chat with a person. Not being trite, it's forum rules, and we really do like to talk to real people! Here's a great read on the Rinji/Contengency Model/Type 3/'44 Model from Nick Komiya: http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/legally-rebutting-existence-type-3-army-officers-sword-708745/ Does your rig have the double release button or just a single? Would love to see a picture of the fittings. Yours doesn't appear to have the star at first glance. Recommend taking everything off including the habaki. Sometimes stamps hide up higher on the nakago (tang). Here's a picture of my star stamp. You may also have small stamps on the back edge (mune) of the nakago.

Thanks Brandon. I just learned that on a similar discussion on the Translation Assistance thread. They said these "signature" marks by the polisher have been used for centuries. I'm not a nihonto collector, so I haven't come across them before (or noticed them if I did). I guess the problem is the same, though. Even if the polisher was a current one from today, not WWII, it doesn't prove or disprove, by itself, the age or legitimacy of the blade. If the marks are unique to a particular polisher, I think it adds some building evidence that a particular seller in Japan is turning mumei blades into Mantetsu blades and having them polished by his favorite polisher. They all have the same look, polish, and attribution characteristics.

Thanks Logan. So, even if the polisher is modern, that fact alone doesn't mean the blade is new, so hrumph.

Logan, is that what those parallel lines are that my arrow is pointing to? The polisher puts that there? Is that a modern polisher practice? I don't recall seeing those on WWII era blades.

I’m thinking about coming down on “fake”. These are almost all attributed to admirals, generals, and colonels, and they have a distinct NEW look with this unique pattern under the habaki:

John, Thanks for the photo. I agree they all have the same luck. They all have attributions to generals or admirals or colonels. Brian, I’m finally there with you on this. The file marks are never correct for Mantetsu blades. And they all have these unique marks that I’ve pointed to in this photograph.

Not much I can add beyond what you guys have said. I checked Fuller and Dawson - neither have this variant. I have never seen it myself. Dawson talks of "home defense" gunto which were lower in quality, but they have the uniformly styled kabutogane and sayajiri. If I had just seen these on the market, and not in Neil's collection, I'd have written them off as Franken-gunto, pieced together, with recently poorly re-wrapped tsuka (except the one in the middle with clear hand-oil wear). But the poor quality from tip to stern indicates all original, and the fact that they are all 3 by the same smith. (I have a vague memory of someone else discussing his theory that a smith was using the same koshirae maker). Dang, I'd sure like to see an updated Fuller or Dawson with all Neil's discoveries and all my stamps and all Steve and Ernie's 95s. Oh, it would have the news about the "NLF Gunto" being a post-war PX item; and all of Nick Komiya's charts and production data. I'd throw in some bits we've learned on the Mantetsu, too. What a great book that would be!

Ed, My post came from a Buyee.jp action site, but it's post is a Yahoo auction, that seems to be the same: https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/w307428001. I don't know what "Buyee" is, but there are USA sites that gather sales from around the globe. Mabye that explains it. Hamfish, I checked all my '41s and agree - their nakago remain pretty uniform in width, without taper or much taper. Also, the Mantetsu nakago mune began as flat, like other blades, but in '40 they began rounding them, not all but a mix. By '41, all Mantetsu mune were rounded, EXCEPT those specifically made for Rinji (type 3) mounts, which were flat. Both these wavy blades are '41s and are flat, but in Type 98 mounts. That would lean toward fakery, but not proof alone, as a custom blade could be made any way the smith desired obviously. On the other hand, the "skin" of this blades does have the look of a polished Mantetsu. When I had mine polished, the polisher called the look "sliced pear", which this one has. "SIGH"

The file marks aren’t Mantetsu standard either.

You made me realize it would be easy to find out - the gunto was a Tokyo arsenal product (blade and fuchi Stamps). So the question is why was a Tokyo inspector using this stamp? We may never know. A possibility is that the thousands of gunto per month were too much for arsenal staff to inspect, and company inspectors were augmenting them. The 95s were made by a few contractor companies. It could mean a contractor inspector checked this one off.

Great picture Jareth. I’m pretty sure that’s a Type 95, with a leather NCO tassel, though.

Just found a stamp I've never seen before on a Type 95 saya drag. Am told it's "Sha". Anyone know the significance? Drag stamps are usually inspector stamps from an arsenal - "To" from Tokyo, "Na" from Nagoya.