Bruce Pennington

Chris, that’s a good price. I’d love to have one of these, but they’re hard to find under $1,000.

Sad news from Nick Komiya at Warrelics. I guess since Mantetsu-to are where the money is today in WWII gunto, that is attracting the criminal element: "Late last year, the association of Nihontoh smiths petitioned the government for subsidies to support and preserve the tradition of Japanese sword -smithing, which otherwise they claimed to be a quickly dying skill in Japan. They warned further that soon there will only be "made in China" Nihontoh. I did not take their last warning seriously, but if they are making fake Mantetsutoh, China is a likely source and the warning starts to make serious sense. On the other hand, I did a Google search in Japanese on fake Mantetsu, and discovered that Japanese collectors are also onto the possibility of Mantetsu blades being faked since 2015 or so. A post claimed that the author started to entertain doubts when he noticed two Mantetsus were approved for a permit on the same day in consecutive numbers, striking him as too much of a coincidence and that a sudden surge in Mantetsu supply in the market is observed . His theory is that perhaps already registered Mumei Bizentoh (having similar characteristics to a Mantetsu) blades are getting fake Mantetsu mei added, in this case, in Japan. Anyway collectors do seem to have good reason to be on alert over Mantetsu blades."

LOL!!! Thanks for the laugh! Yes, of course someone would take a 500 yr old blade and put a WWII date on it!!! Makes complete sense to me ........ [will SOMEBODY silence those voices in my head!!!!]

Dan, This is one of the most egregiously falsely advertised gunto I've ever seen! The date is March 1944 and the smith is; 兼定 (Kanesada) (I might have the "sada" part wrong). The fittings are called several names - Type 3, '44 fittings, Contingency (Rinji) model - and are not rare at all. There are many of these on the market. Writing on both sides of the nakago (tang) is quite normal. I'll let the nihonto experts chime in on that, but I doubt it. Purely a WWII era, factory blade and fittings. [Ha! I just saw that 3 other guys posted as I was typing!]

Very sad to hear. Scumbags are an eternal part of our humanity. Just painful to have to deal with them in our day & age and in our fields of study. I'm going to keep this one in the study, but note the controversy.

Ha! I think you're going to have to join me and take on that study, my friend! I've saved many pictures, but not one of them includes the mounts. In general, I can say I've seen them in 98, Type 3 (Rinji), and combat saya fittings. But it would take someone more versed in koshirae to tackle that question.

Neil, The short answer is "yes, too early." We know that SMR brought in a smith (or 2?) to design the blade and teach the workers how to make them. But we have no documentation to tell us who those workers were. I might sit down and start comparing mei on a line, like the '42 "Ra" line, since it's pretty big, and see if the mei match, then compare those mei to another line to see if there is a noticable distinction. BUT, we already know that some factories (no idea about Mantetsu's practice) used mei cutters that were completely seperate from the actual smiths, so this might be a wild goose chase. As to where? Still no proof. The latest discoveries are hinting that most blades were made at SMR Mantetsu, with several thousand "finished" at Tokyo 1st Arsenal and maybe Mukden. It's seems possible, too, that some (Ren with 工) were fully made at Mukden, but that is pure speculation at this point.

Thank you Stephen! Are you able to read the certificate and tell us what it says? This is being sold in Japan right? (I can't read Japanese). If so, it's seems unlikely that someone in Japan would buy a Komonjo gunto off fleabay to resell in Japan. The price they're asking is less than they would have paid Komonjo for it. I have seen 2 or 3 other Mantetsu-to with wavy hamon. This is the first I've seen that looks fully nihonto though. It would not surprise me. We have already seen several specially made blades from Mantetsu, for various purposes.

Interesting find by Nick Komiya at Warrelics: Don’t know if it explains or adds to rigs like this, but it might! “Here are two secret ordinances released in succession in May and June of 1945 that allowed Army NCOs to carry their personal family swords as Gunto instead of the Type 95. At first, this option was limited to senior NCOs only (those entitled to swords), but in June, this limitation was dropped to allow all NCOs (except those required to carry firearms). This option was conditional to the family sword suitably resembling the regulation gunto specs and further subject to the approval of the unit commander. Note that these regulations presume the market availability of conversion kits that switch traditional Samurai swords to match Gunto specs, which explain the derivative components often explained away as Gunzoku specs.” http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/short-development-history-type-95-gunto-676112-7/

Thank you BaZZa! A new one for the study! Did you pick any of them up, or just look and enjoy the collection? Interesting trivia this brought to my attention: Of the 31 '41s only 5 are numbered over 400, whereas of the 36 '42s only 6 are under 400. The other years seem to have an even spread of numbers across the spectrum.

I second that motion.

The Showa stamp was used between late 1940 to early 1942.

Neil, I'd say tachi and other "civilian" tsuba are commonly seen, but this particular design seems rare.

George, The temptation was in $$$. A blade made by a famous, respected smith would sell for more money than one made by an average or below average smith. So the down-and-out smith is tempted (and sometimes gave in) to fake the famous name on his work, selling it for more money than his own name would earn. The Japanese created the NTHK organization to try to inspect signatures for legitimacy.

That chart I mentioned. My copy/paste is working now, but when I try it, only the data transfers, not the chart lines. So here's a screenshot:

Chris, All occupied lands, both by Germany and Japan, "recruited" locals to fight for them. They forced business and factories to make things for them. Try looking up "PETA forces WWII". Here's a link that has a little info on them: https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=171150

Didier, First, I want to make it clear - I don't believe yours is a fake. Mine likely is, but yours is not a fake. The plum blossoms on it are intentional and high quality work. The tsuba is made to resemble the Japanese style, but with differences that are intentional to set it apart for Chinese use, most likely the Chinese forces working for/with the Japanese. As to your latest example, it's clearly legit also, but Japanese made for a Japanese gunto. It's just another good example like John's above. This is becoming an interesting thread for collecting examples of the tsuba with round holes!

Excellent Dave, yes. That's who I was refering to. Other occupied/allied Asian groups made swords for their cooperating forces too, but the Chinese-made ones seem to be a higher quality and did a better job of replicating many of the fittings features of a Japanese gunto. These of course, throw us collectors for a loop today, because of all the fakery out there, but Didier's original tsuba in this thread strikes me as something made for Chinese collaborating troops.

The sale was cancelled. Your comment must have been taken seriously.

Ha! I saw this and thought "Wow, someone has a tsuba just like mine!" Then I realized it IS mine! First, Didier, I believe the flower on your tsuba is the Chinese plum of WWII. Which COULD mean these fittings were made for an officer in the Chinese military working for or with the Japanese. I have little to no knowledge of that aspect of the war, but I do know that such things were done. I've posted a picture of the plum blossom. John, it's interesting to see your tsuba with the rounded holes. The fine artwork of the cherry blossoms appear legit to me, as opposed to the poor imitation on mine. Yours looks legit, while mine looks like a really bad fake. In fact, the rest of the fittings on the "gunto" mine is on are equally horrific. The blade is lighter weight than normal and it's hamon looks like it was applied with a steel wire spinning brush. The nakago looks like it was melted with acid to hide the fact that it wasn't a Japanese blade. John's tsuba reminds me of the fact that fakers copy something that was original. So now I'm more convinced that mine was a fake rather than just a REALLY badly crafted gunto.

Fabulous Tom! That goes nicely with a Winter '38 N206 that I already have!

George, Don't know if you've learned any more on the Tan stamp, but I'd like to hear it if you have. Here are a couple of links I've seen with the stamp: Kanetada: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12773-type-98-gunto-tan-stamped Kanekuni: http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/28201-kai-gunto-signature-help-tan-stamped/ Amahide (fleabay) Fuller said the stamp means "forged", and general chatter on forums contend it is found on gendaito. I'd like to know if you've got something more definitive about this one.

Neil, You got it - Spring '43, Koa Isshin, "Ma 360" - and one I didn't have, thanks mate! If I can get my tablet to copy/paste, I'll post the chart showing the Nan, Ren, Ren/I, and Koa mix...

Easily confused with “tsuka”. Sometimes you can grab both sides of the tsuba and rock it back and forth. I’ve also tapped on both sides of the tsuba with a rubber mallet.

Thanks John! Looks like your hunch was correct. David, Ha! Yes, the dam is slowly getting cracks in it! It's been 73 freakin' years. It's time to open up and allow the appreciation of all beauty. All craftsmanship has it's value and beauty and should be appreciated (Ok, so one exception is the Airbus 380, it's just ugly).