Peter Bleed

Friends, I almost didn't read this thread because this is not my kind of sword. But I am very glad I did. The sword IS worth looking at. And the discussion has been positive and informative. This is the kind of discussion that makes the Forum important! Thanks. Peter

Mark, Let me add to the welcome. . . and add that you are lucky to have started with a blade by Hokke-sama. i had the honor of meeting him and visiting his forge. He was a fine person and important to the preservation of sword technology. He also provides an opportuniyt to say that Hizen swords from way donw south are hardly the only swords one might start collecting. Let your sword lead you to other swords of northern Japan. Whatever you end up with, enjoy! Peter

This has been great fun. Thank you Chris! I just decided to 'get serious' and make decisions I could live with. I went back, looked at the posted images, tried to make reasoned decisions, and made a list that would be reasonable. Having done that, I went back and looked at my earlier assessments. Holy, poop! I was really way off - - in one or the others of my assessments! It is time, Chris! Tell us the answers - - and get ready for the raft o' crap that will come your way after you tell us the answers. Peter Oh, and P.S. thanks for a great post!

I have arrived late and had to wade through all of those other "guesses" before I have been able to cast these 'correct' answers. Showa era blades include 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 10 Non-Showa-to are 2, 11, and 8 In the "No clue category", I'd put 7 and 9. Hey, wait a minute, I think I want to think about this a bit more.... Peter

Let me, an anthropologist, or at least an archeologist, join in this discussion. It is clearly sincere and shows that lots of sword collectors are interested in the cultural, social, and historical contexts of these things we collect. That's great. Like many others who have expressed themselves, I took classes in Japanese history and discovered that 'authorities' don't seem to agree. The reality is that the 'past' is pretty long and easier to talk about if we break it into subdivisions. In typically Japanese fashion, "authorities" have decided what matters (where the capital was, who was in charges, or what kind of pottery was distinctive). These subdvisions of the past are arbitrary. They may be handy and they DO facilitate conversation. Sword collectors should know them because they help us read books on the Japanese past - - when swords were being made and used. The greater reality, it seems to me, is that NONE of these subdivisions mean very much about swords. The fact that there was a destructive flood in Osafune in 1596 matters to sword production. In retrospect, it becomes a convenient point at which to separate koto and shinto. The fact that a big battle in 1603 settled some political scores, counts for nothing n the world of swords. Swordsmiths were not at Sekigahara. They kept working as they had been. And we love those early "Shinto" because smiths of that era did not know that peace had broken out. They were still making weapons, thank you! Kunikane shodai did not know that he was a Shinto smith. At the other end of that oppressive police state called the Edo period, the Meiji Ishin seems to have meant nothing to swordsmiths. Think of all those Meiji 2 and 3 dated swords we see. They are not uncommon so the Meiji "Restoration" seems to have meant screw-all to swordsmiths. Now, when the new politcal leaders got around to outlawing wearing swords, that mattered! I am interested in buying swords dated - let's say Meiji 10-15. That is when the 14th Kunikane gave up and let himself become the adopted some of a fish merchant. My point is this, swords are our hobby. We should view them in historical context. But we should also be able to look at them in their own context. Peter

Shoshin, gimei-sama said "Just a reminder, NMB is dedicated to the study of Nihonto, no one studies anything on worn out blades. :(" With due respect, Jean, I couldn't agree less. I beleive that every blade has something to teach, even if they all aren't worth buying. This has been an interesting thread. I'm glad that Brian got it started and I hope we will see him at future sword shows. Peter

Stephen, I am very glad that you have joined this discussion. I also hope that you realize that I posted the Saga scans simply because I had them and thought that they might be of historical interest. Your discoveries are important. The Saga piece is curious. Some on this list may recall that I wrote a bit of a story about lost treasures. Since I had no idea who Coldy might have been (if he existed at all), I made the made up a GI named Hervey Stimpson. I sincerely hope that you will draw your work together in a publication. Lots of us will want to read it. Peter

I'd have to check texts that are not in front of me, but isn't this a standard symbol on WWII era IJA maps? Peter

Brian, Indeed, I should have drawn attention to Mr. Thorpe's wonderful discoveries and additions to our understanding of the "lost" National treasures. I have looked for but never found the list of missing treasures presented in the Yamanaka Newsletter. Is it there somewhere? If it is, he certainly didn't highlight it. It makes one wonder what Albert was doing with the information. Finally, I am too interested in the historical trivia, but the Saga article made me wonder if the JSSUS Newsletter would sell better if we allowed advertisements for "Wonder Slim Belly Flatteners." Peter

Morita-san Thank you for the positive response. I was glad to know that the link I sent is working. The positive efforts of Bumpei Usui and Albert Yamanaka deserve our respect, even if this old article is flawed. The "information" and values presented in the article help to understand the activities of the sword enthusiasts who built collections and supported mass return of swords to Japan in the 1980s and 90s. And thank you for posting the Masamune oshigata. Can you tell me where that image is held? Is it in the NBTHK? Peter

Dear Friends, I fear that this effort may get complex, but... for good reason I today scanned and made dense pdf's of an obscure 1966 article on "Japanese treasure swords" that was published in SAGA a real pulp men's magazine. I find this article interesting for a couple of reasons. It is a rarity. It documents the (sorry) state of knowledge that was available to the first generation of post-War collectors, and it has some stuff on lost National Treasures. The data presented here has been made completely obsolete by information presented on this forum, but I think it might be of historical interest to sword otoku. The following dropbox has some 8 pdf's. That means they require something like adobe to view. And they are a bit slow so you have to be patient The file 'Complete Portfolio.pdf' (101.5 MB) is available for download at < http://dropbox.unl.edu/uploads/20120927 ... tfolio.pdf > for the next 14 days. It will be removed after Thursday, September 27, 2012. I hope this works and that it is of some interest. Peter

Tobais, One of the great disappointments of my life has to be that I was NOT in the Archaeology Lab of Tohoku University when they excavated Masamune's tomb ay Zuihoden. I was there just before that project and returned just after, but I missed the event and actually heard little about it. The work was over seen by Ito Nobuo and supervised by Michio Okamura. I have seen the report, but do not own one and believe that they are hard to get. This is the ref. I think the work was done in about 1972 so tere may not be lots of video. Ito, Nobuo (ed.) Zuiho-den, the Tomb and the Relics of Date Masamune (Zuiho-den Date Masamune no haka to sono ihin), 　Society for the reconstruction of Zuiho-den, 1979 (In Japanese) Best of luck, Peter

Chris and All, Please let me contribute - bulk if not information - to this interesting thread. As a collector of Ainu cutlery, I have often been shown rustic short swords like this one. They tend to have plain wood saya/tsuka, often they have roughly finished antler fittings, and they almost invariably have rattan wrapping around various parts of the tsuka and saya. Often they have NO metal kodogu, altho they tend to look "Japanese." They do NOT have the kinds of carved embellishments that are typical of Ainu knives and swords - brackets , cross-hatched "fish scale designs, and family mon. For that last reason, I am sure that these are NOT Ainu. These swords are essentially unlike anything I have seen in publications or museum displays on the Ainu. So if they are not Ainu, what they might be? My guess is that these swords were made in Japan, for use by the "MATAGI" who were specialized, rustic folks who survived as hunters and woodsmen. These are the guys who used those rustic matchlocks and non-samurai shooting kits that we see from time to time. These are almost always shoto that seem to have been used for lots of real world tasks. They're beat up -- "cowboy'd" as my western gun collecting friends describe well used firearms. So, my vote is that this short sword is a re-purposed Japanese blade, fitted out in Japan, for a non-samurai people, but NOT for or by the Ainu. Peter

It is certainly a heavily worn and reshaped kogatana, but I am not sure it should be called 'worn out". I've seen heavily reworked blades like this in use on mounted swords. These things seem to happen, tho I can't say why. I'd count it a usable piece. Peter

Friends, Is there anyone in the US who re-laces and reconstructs kabuto shikoro? I looked this morning at a nice - not great - old kabuto with a totally detached shikoro. The hachi is unsigned and "old," but I think not really worth the investment that would be involve in sending it to Japan. Any suggestions? Peter

I think this discussion is being too heavily influenced by the cleaned nakago. Who was making "mino tanto" in Shinto times? I'd vote for an intentionally 'old' looking shinshinto. But depending on how much age is put on the tang when it is repatinated (and it will be!) late koto could be reasonable. Peter

Friends, I tried last night to post the scant information on Kunimitsu that is in the Sendai meikan, but it failed to go thru. Recent posts have made most of what I could add redundant, but... The Meikan shows a rubbing like the one present here. It is identified as by the son of the first Kunimitsu who was a tsunet of YOSHIMTSU of Mito. The second generation Kunimitsu died at the age of 67 in Showa 43. The first generation worked from Meiji, thru Taisho, and into Showa times. Both generations seem to have worked in Yamato tradition with gonome. Peter

Brian, You have received a wide range of opinions - - and given us all an interesting ride. I'll side with Ron Hartman - dahhh - I would bet heavily that this is a legit signature. Like Ron, I've owned a shodai Yasuhiro and I have seen a bunch more. They are not uncommon and from my experience rather varied. It is also important to recall that there were a couple of generations. My guess is that this blade was made by the 3rd generation. That kizu just behind the yokote worries me. And I agree that this blade would be within Dave Hofhine's range. Peter

David, You have treated us to a very interesting discussion. I appreciate the insights that have been shared. The positive power of the forum is truly impressive. Thank y9ou all. My vote - for what it might be worth, ie 'not much' - is that this is NOT a cast guard. Seeing groups of similar fittings helps us understand how fittings were created and produced. Both the people who made kodogu and the men who bought and wore them LIKED regularity. This tsuba may be a piece that conformed to an established design. It might even be "school work." But I see rather pleasant treatment in the surface details. Peter

Peter, I think you have a couple of interesting small tsuba. I'll let others speak to the small sukashi guard, altho is seems to have had an interesting history. Somebody liked it. The other tsuba is certainly "namban" but smaller than any I have even seen. It fits in the category because of the embellished seppa-dai and the paired dragons. There certainly are lots of cast Namban tsuba, but I doubt that this one is cast. Cast guards were produced in larger numbers and the rarity of this one makes me guess that it is a "one off." I wonder if it might have been made for use as a tanto in a daisho. This is an interesting piece. Peter

"could someone please let me know what is the correct name for this type of Hamon?" The answer to this question is, "Crap we shouldn't be discussing here." These are obviously not Japanese blades. The way to learn how to recognize r4eal Japanese swords is to look at real Japanese swords. Books, even a bunch of them, are not enough. Go to sword shows. Visit shops were real swords are sold. Find other collectors with whom you can get "face time." Peter

Well, gee. I think Grey is right that this is "nothing special", but I would speculate that the blade might be a bit older than Meiji times. There seems to have been a market for odd-shaped shoto in earlier Shinto times, kata-kiriba and this kind of big unokubi-zukuri. These things are often unsigned, too. The edge may be a bit doughy, but I would put this blade through a shinsa. And actually, I think this may have been a rather nice looking rig. Peter

David, Let's cut to the chase. 1. You have an interesting sword, but 2. It has lost a great deal of it's latest history, BUT 3. Its latest history wasn't all that important. By 1700 this was being treated as "an old sword." 4. If you like Jakushi tsuba, keep the guard. If not, sell it. (go to #5) 5. Dump the fittings. Somebody may be able to use them. Buy lunch at a sword show. (Actually, I like the habaki) 6. Make the blade as clean as you can and submit it to shinsa. Ron Hartmann gave you a great kantei - this looks like a Nambokucho weapon that earned its wound badge. This is a 'samurai sword." 7. If you get positive kantei, (no saiha, no hagiri) have this blade polished. 8. Enjoy the blade. So there Peter

Please allow me to mention as a part of this thread that I just published an article in the summer 2012 issue of "Man At Arms" on biloded or auriculate Namban tsuba. It is entitled "Small-swords in Japan?" Man at Arms may not be on the radar of most Japanese collectors, but I wanted to discuss the relationship between European small-swords and Namban guards because I think we should encourage broad interest. In my opinion, "Namban" is a mish-mash of exotic objects and motifs 1) that some 18th century Japanese sword wearers found interestingly decorative, and 2) that fittings makers could add to their merchandise. Peter

Please let me know what you think of this, as it seems pretty plain. I think this is a solid $35 guard. I also think that you should not waste your time on things like this. Demand more. Keep looking. When you find something "good" you will recognize it. Peter