Peter Bleed

The date looks to me like Sho-o gennen - 1652, And I see the mei as Bizen Iemori A pretty interesting signature, a full 70 years newer than my first impression. those eaily Shinto are a riddle! Peter

Jean, Thanks for sharing this message. There is no question that sword maintenance has to be rationalized. The costs and risk of sword servicing are too great. And as a result sword preservation is threatened. No one wants to send a sword off for a year and half, pay the freight, get a polish and a saya, and then find out that it is not what we were hoping for. Likewise, we all have swords that are kind of nice but unworthy of costly service. In light of collecting realities, it makes little sense to risk a polish. Collectors need support, help, and fair early advice. Likewise, the leaders of the field need to recognize that a range of services is necessary, and out there. Instead of insisting that there are only worthy polishes, and instead of simply castigating some polisher and assuring us that others are worth the extra cost, we should be helped to find the services that are right for the particular swords we are dealing with. Finally, we need more polisher and to do that we need more business for them - even while they are learning. I think Aoi-san has done us a service Peter Bleed

KIYOMITSU saku can't believe I got to one that hadn't already be rendered! Peter

Ed, this is absolutely an "Ainu Sword." from my experience, that category can include a couple of different kinds of swords. 1) Most of the things classed as Ainu cutlery are Japanese 'knives" of various kinds that were imported from Japan and mounted and attractively fitted out for regular use by the Ainu. 2) Then there are "Japanese" blades that were tricked out to be used as essentially ceremonial gifts to local leaders in Hokkaido. These are often clunky, big swords with gross fittings, odd bits of kodogu, and rough - but Japanese - blades. Colonial powers used these sorts of things across the world during the 'Age of Exploration" to mark, reward, and trick out guys who the colonial powers viewed as allies. "Peace Medals","Chiefs' Grade Trade Fusils", are North American examples. There are other examples from Africa, Siberia, and Australia. 3) Finally, there are sword like this that were clearly mounted by the Ainu AND made on blade that appear not to have been made by Japanese swordsmiths. There were Ainu smiths, but it is also possible that some of these blade originated elsewhere in northeast Asia. They are big hirazukuri shoto, often with - ahhh - crude horimono, and unsigned narrow nakago. Obviously, I would class this sword in the last category. A catalog from the Shiogama jinja presents a bunch of these blades - like 20 of them. I am impressed that in that catalog, the bare blades are presented entirely unpolished and l in pretty rough 'as found' condition. In other words, the folks at shiogama - who should know - seemed NOT to be treating them like Nippon-to Ainu sword were either working knives, or largely ceremonial objects, given and worn as rank indicators by men who were involved in the middle to late Edo period Japanese management of their northern frontier. At least that the story I think that makes most sense. They are "ethnographic art". and this one is a nice one. Thanks for showing. Peter P. S. Chris, thanks for remembering my interest. Oh, and please remember me when you see a Sendai Kunikane!

Mariusz I'm sorry, but I think we are not addressing the same question. Is this a great tsuba? Indeed, it is not. Is this a piece that is representative of a style, manner, or motif that is worthy of collectors' attention - for a hundred buck? My answer to the question that opened this thread is that I think there is "hope for this tsuba." Peter

What is the problem here? If I were attracted to this motif, I'd feel that it is interesting - if mebbe a bit elemental. It certainly is a "working" tsuba, and terribly dirty. But with cleaning (which will take time and cost some money), I feel this would be a collectible guard. What am I missing? Is the "dirt" too obviously new? Is there a reason the abuse seems concentrated on the surface and not the mimi? Am I trying too hard? Peter

This has been a terrific discussion. I have read and reread it with interest and I learned something each time. Thank you Darcy for the long and thoughtful contributions. I think Chris is exactly correct in suggesting that the issue is “arbitrage.” This is a term I learned years ago from Arnold Frenzel who told us 40 years ago (at Dallas), that swords were a lousy “investment.” When I asked Arnold about this, and pointed out all the money that a lot of guys were making, he told me that those guys were not “investing”, but doing “spot arbitrage.” In those halcyon days, it was easy to move between Markets. We could buy low (at gun shows and motels) and sell high (to Japanese buyers who seemed endlessly willing and very deep-pocketed). I am not sure if swords bought then and held ‘til now were a good investment, but there are lots of collections, mine included, that were built that way. Arbitrage collecting was great sport. It was fun and adventurous. And it supported a lot of sword learning. Every sword was a learning experience since nothing came with an assessment. Each new sword required research. Libraries built at that time were extensive rather than intensive. That kind of collecting was great fun, but it is largely over. Hearing about the dynamics of the modern market in “good” swords has been wonderfully revealing aspect of this thread. I read it like an ethnographic description of an exotic tribe since I do not operate at that level. Nothing surprised me, though. This is how the sword world works. As Chris pointed out, the market for swords is still imperfect, and I would add, imperfect enough to support “arbitrage collecting”. Knowing where arbitrage might be is a part of modern sword collecting. There are very few swords “in the woodwork” so hunting for undiscovered war trophies rarely pays off. What I do think is developing is a community and a market composed of naïve “sword collectors.” This community is not likely to be on this forum. They do not go to sword shows. But they are served by dealers who meet their needs. I don’t think we see these guys at sword shows. This market adds a chaotic side to Japanese sword collecting. And that is where slightly expert collectors can still find under-appreciated collectible swords. Let me describe a couple of specific recent experiences that illustrate this world of sword. For years I have enjoyed attending a major national gun show with a couple of friends. This summer, I brought some gusto that I had at the last Chicago Token-koi. Most of this stuff sold quickly. Among them was a nice o-surface blade that had to be koto Tegai – that was 21” long. It got no respect in Chicago but sold quickly to a dealer who just sold it on-line for TWICE what I would have taken at Chi-town. After the feeding frenzy was over, I was left with a couple of totally ordinary, out-of-polish Seki blades in rough mounts. I can’t figure out why anyone would want these blades. But I swapped them for a signed, dated, polished, koto wakizashi in buke-zukuri koshirae. Helloooo! My point is that there seems to be a diverse spectrum of interest in Japanese swords. Forces we cannot fully explain, have decided what is “important”, but there are lots of other worthy, interesting, and collectible swords out there. Collectors who have basic knowledge, who can recognize the qualities of “good” swords and who interact with others, can still find worthy swords, even If they aren’t wealthy and don’t hang out at Christie’s or Tokyo. Peter P.S. Brian, It worked. You ARE a saint!

I, too, had a great time at the Chicago show. There were lots of folks (including a raft of old friends), lots of selling, and lots to look at. There was some serious high end eye-candy including jo-to toku-ju, as well as a lot of simply nice swords and fittings. And there seems to have been a lot of "merch" that was actively changing hands. Most of the dealing I saw involved utility grade stuff. Prices for that stuff were hardly "high", but the fact that guys were acquiring piles of stuff that could be described as ""entry level" suggests that out in the world there are new collectors interested in swords. I saw that as positive. Hopefully these collectors can be brought along. As always, some collectors and dealers were culling thru the stuff being offered looking for potential. There seemed to be little interest in "ordinary stuff" - signed shinto had to be either real cheap or extremely good to attract attention. These sorts of swords may be collectible, but most collectors have figured out which ones they want. On the other hand, I happened to have been involved in 4 separate conversations about mumei nagamaki-naoshi. I learned from them and i think at least one really good blade may have been discovered (not by me, unfortunately). Bottom line, the community is more expert than it was and as a result it is making thoughtful assessments. Finally, let me join the others in saying that the Show was extremely well run. Mark and his family made it easy and pleasant for us all to enjoy the event. Thank you! The contribution of the NBTHK-AB was also important. Bob Benson, Mike Yamasaki, Andy Quirt, Paul Davidson, and Fred Weissberg contributed to the show. They shared information and insights and provided social support to collectors with questions. Mike's "shinsa exercise" was terrific. Again, next year! Peter

This Board is just wonderful. Thank you Barry, John, Brian. And obviously, Roger is a prime resource. Here's the deal, I have heard that there may be an effort to recognize the pre-Meiji industrial facilities of northern Kyushu. Having been involved in trying to assess premodern artillery debris as archeology, I would love to help with Japanese research on this topic. Sword collectors should also make sure that the contribution of sword production are recognized in this effort. As a collector of Sendai shinto, I have regularly - even on this Board but always with tongue-in-cheek - teased collectors of Hizen-to. Sendai and Hizen are the bookends of Shinto, afterall. Now I am wishing that I had built my library on the Hizen side of this topic. Again, thanks for the help. Peter P.S. BTW, masame rules

Friends, Please let me beg the help of Board for information on the location of the forges of the Hizen smiths. Do we know where the Hizen smiths actually worked? Have any travelers made it to Saga-ken and found any information about forge or “arsenal” location. And while I am asking, can anyone point me to information about the development and use of artillery by Hizen troops during the Edo Period? Peter

Mike, Thanks for showing us this tsuba I think it is a beautiful fitting. I find it refined and graceful and full of rustic charm. It is "old" but it wears its age well. It is not glitzy, or sleek, but it looks manly and functional. This is a guard for the work of war. It can't be assessed in terms of tea rooms or pleasure quarters. Wow! Peter

Friends, I am starting to assemble the stuff I will be bringing to the great Chicago Sword Show. Last year a brought a bunch of stuff that found a home. But there were some things that didn't even get tire kickers - why didn't somebody buy my Japanese box bellows? What should a guy bring to serve the market this year, I wonder? This year I have a bunch of gunto and some militaria. How is that market and is Chi-town the place? And I really should get rid of my Japanese carpenters' tools. Chris, are you going to be there with pictures of the house? With all the collectors here in the Midwest, there ought to lots of action? Peter

Mark, Great challenge. Thanks. I am getting here late and I have NOT gotten my books out. But doesn't this say that he was 62 - - when he made this? Peter

Indeed, this does look like a nice sword and a very fair price. Still, I urge you to come to Chicago or another of the North American sword shows. since you might find lots of interesting deals as well as folks you can have wonderful conversations with. Prices may be leveling around the world. And this forum provides great communications. Still, it is nice to be able to talk with real people while you are looking at specific swords. Hope to meet you some time. Peter

Friends, Maybe this is WAY old news, but I just visited the webpage on Dean Hartley II and a found a bunch of stuff that I had not seen. (including a picture of a sword that I now own!) http://home.comcast.net/~colhartley/index.html If this is old news forgive me. If there are folks who have not read all those old papers and viewed the movie, I think it is it is worth looking at this link. Peter

Another interesting thread.Thank you Chris, Let me say that "feeding from the bottom" is the only thing that some of of us can afford. It also can be great fun. It can also pay off. BUT it requires study, basic knowledge, and networking. I suggest that bottom feeders remember two things 1. You have to kiss a lot of frogs to meet a prince. and 2. Even a blind pig can find a truffle, but one with one eye and friends will do better. Peter

As others have said, "Thanks Paul!" This was very stimulating and a good use of the Board. Peter

This is a great exerise. Thank you Paul! Here are some out of the groove guesses. Top: Shinto 2nd: Kambu shinto - shortened 3rd: Shin-shinto Bottom: Kamakura Peter

Tom, It sure wasn't obvious to me! Good call. Peter

Friends, The best result of my recent inquiry about iron habaki was some interest and the clear indication that this list likes pictures. Now, I have no skill at taking picture, but I am still in the fun stage of looking at and trying to understand a new sword, so please letme TRY to show more about this sword. It is, as I said, a Hizen shinto signed HIZEN KUNI HIGO DAIJO MINAMOTO TANEHIRO. slightly surigae with a slight impact scar low on the nakago. This scar does not look nearly as large as WWII era bullet impacts, but something hit the tang of this sword hard enough to dimple and slight bend the tang -WACK! On the omote is an inscription - which looks to me like an added "name? I read it as "Su(ki)gamo" or "Break in the clouds" And for the record, the 'iron habaki" I asked about yesterday is included in the pciture. Note is has light irregular karakuza nunome overlay on the back surface - as well as on the top and bottom. The hakaki is one piece but made in the form of a two piece fitting.

Dear Friends, I am in the very early stages of exploring a newly "found" sword. It presents - be still my heart - many questions. These are why I collect so I look forward to addressing them. The blade - a Hizen Shinto - has an iron habaki. I am not used to seeing these and hope that the deep expertise of the Board can help me understand what - if anything - an iron habaki might mean. Peter

sorry, I intended that to say "get a BONE"

it says kaneuji. get a boe and knock that red reust off. it adds nothing. P

Well, gee. I hope to see this program at some point - having tried to support it. I expect it can't be all bad. Still, having seen only the trailers referenced on this forum, I have to wonder why British announcers ALL have lousy Japanese. I know that the NHK just loves a British accent, but why can't British announcers get it right? What is with this maaSAMune stuff. Doesn't anybody care? Has no one ever asked where the bus stops or where the benjo is? Peter

This has been a tough thread to follow -given its many sides and implications- - - and creative wit of the forum. Let's focus on what the future of sword collecting will look like. It is an interesting topic with real world implications. I have found the history of "collecting" of interest (we all ought to read Alsop's Rare Art Traditions!) Based on the past, I am sure that collecting will continue. But, it seems to me that collecting 1)is either the province of the wealthy, OR 2) it happens as a mass activity when stuff is available and cheap. Japanese sword collecting became what it is today as a result of the chaos and collapse that followed the War. Those conditions are over. Today, there are not enough rich collectors - and too many mere swords - to support Nippon-to collecting as a wealthy pursuit. Our swords are NOT like Rembrants and Old Master paintings. In this situation, I am sure that the price of swords will have to fall. BUT when the right price point is reached, somebody will collect them. Chris please tell us how to access those Chinese sword collectors! I will also predict that the overall condition of swords will fall. Beyond the uncertain future of swordsmithing, the cost of polish, lacquer work, tsuka-maki yah dahh yahh dahh, is so high collectors won't pay for it. Peter Bleed