Peter Bleed

Chris is right, "chinoiserie" could be a good fair guess for this sword. But there is another potential since aspects of this sword look pretty Japanese. In the 70's and early 80's, when sword buyers were actively running ads and spending money, many of the players were very naive and the level of skill and understanding was generally low. So were prices, of course. In that context there were Americans who 'signed' swords and made other improvements that were intended to make unsigned blades more salable to gun slicks and others who thought that they could make money on "signed" blades. I recall one fellow who said his "mei" was "Masahira" or sometimes "Hiramasa". Peter

Isn't it Showa 16 Shogatsu? or January '41? Peter

Let me dip into my vast but uncatalogued library of forgotten lore to say that I have seen kanji inscribed as under habaki "polsiher's marks." I recall asking a Japanese dealer at one of the Chicago shows about this. He dismissed them saying, "country polishers did that sort of thing." I think he did buy the sword, tho. Peter

Let me agree with Jean, NICE call Moriyama-san! But I wonder if we should called this a "scratch." Could this be a burnished inscription added when the sword was polished? Peter

Wow, this discussion has gotten ahead of me. The quality and condition of the Kwany on Ron's gun is superior. the inlay on Mike's gun has serious "condition issues". But I still say that it is an interesting and unusual image. We rarely see human images on guns and this one has an interesting stnace andlook. Clearly the face has been serious marred, recut? moved?. I still think it is worthy. Peter

I hesitate to add to the expert discussion that has already been presented here, but this gun brings to mind some matchlocks I remember seeing in Tohoku. Up there, country folks had and used old matchlock guns for hunting. These were used by both farmers and 'matagi' who were full time commercial hunters. You can see guns in amongst "mingei" or 'folk art' that look like old tanegashima that have been much used and rustically maintained. Here on the Plains, gun slicks are used to seeing old army rifles that fit that descriptions. They refer to them as "cowboy'd." Whatever you call it, I think that gun shows some "non-samurai alternation." I LOVE the barrel inlay and I think the gun would clean up nicely. Peter

Robert, I would love to know about your interest in what I think of as "old" sword books. Please tell us what about them you find interesting and useful. Why were they produced? Who wrote them, yahhh dahh yahhh dahh? This seems like an overlooked topic. Oh, and I still wish I was there in Jinbocho! Peter

The Isseido can be counted on to have several sword books and they alwasy used to have some good stuff upstairs in the 'gaikokugo' section. You can also ask them for advice and they will help you find the shop on their right and several doors down that has a big sword section. Wish I was there! Peter

My efforts to let a thousand blossoms bloom and open sword collecting appear to be falling on stony ground. I think we should expand collecting and appreciation of Japanese swords. I think, further, that the best way of doing that is to encourage collectors to develop and follow a passion. That passion MAY be set by the established standards of a community in Japan. But it could follow other patterns. Aside from destructive curiosity (think Cyril Stanley Smith) there are no bad ways collecting swords. Maybe I have to come out. My name is Peter and I’m an accumulator. A couple of times a year, I get out a bunch of katana. They are not my “collection”, simply swords I have accumulated. There’s a re-wrapped tsuka here, a polished blade there, and lots of “stabilized” lacquer. What there isn’t in this stuff, is a theme or school. They are basically swords I could acquire and did. I truly enjoyed getting them and can remember a story that came to me with each one. Beyond that it gives me great pleasure to look at this pile of stuff and realize that these swords could have walked along the Tokkaido. Those blades over there could have been at Sekigahara. This plane-jane was probably the property of a hardworking Edo period police officer. I like those feelings and I cannot be convinced that they are wrong. Now, if I had sold these swords when the times were right (if ONLY!), I probably could afford to contact a dealer in Tokyo who would sell me a shodai Kunikane that I would love to own because IT would fit in my “collection.” But that is what I would see as simple accumulation. There is no adventure there – merely money. Peter

Please allow me to initiate a “new” thread” that follows up a couple of other threads that have recently generated discussion in this wonderful community. These threads have explicitly addressed advice to newbies (sic!) and the books needed to understand nipponto. Several of the active participants on the board have explained what they think is necessary to enter and thrive in the pastime of Japanese swords. Advising new collectors is a good thing for all of us to do. But to do that, I think we should be careful and explicit about what we are laying down as “correct.” It helps me to make a distinction between “collecting Japanese swords” and “Japanese sword collecting.” Japanese people who collect swords tend to do so in the same basic manner that they do everything else. Japanese like to be in arranged in groups. They especially like those groups to be organized in hierarchies. Furthermore, Japanese prefer clear rules and standards. This is a good way to dress. These are the categories that matter. This is the standard way of doing. . . whatever – flower arrangement, comic book design, sumo, kendo, or squid fishing. Thus, the standard Japanese way of collecting swords involves 1) joining a collecting community, 2) learning the standards of that group, and then 3) fitting in i.e. using that network and mastery of their standards to assemble a ‘collection’. This is “Japanese sword collecting.” There are other ways of collecting Japanese swords. In the U.S., for example, a classic way of doing that can be described as arbitrage: find’em as war booty and keep’em as art. In fact, I think there are very few “Japanese sword collectors” (as described above) in the JSSUS. There are lots of people on this side of the Pacific who can make excellent qualitative judgments about swords -witness the number of Ju-to from the U.S. But very few Americans take part in the monthly kantei quizzes of Token Bijutsu. Learning the rules and playing that game is not easy for my confrere –( or me!). On the other hand, Western collectors have led the way in organizing information on military and civilian swords of the past century. This has not been a priority - or a concern - for Japanese leaders of sword interest. Certainly there are practical reasons that have contributed to all of these situations, but my point is that there are different ways of collecting Japanese swords. Telling a new collector to read Noburo Nakahara’s book and then Kokan Nagayama’s may not be bad advice. But a new collector may not immediately understand that these two beautiful books expose different collecting communities. Likewise, it seems foolish to tell a new collector to spend $4000 going to the Token Dai Ichi until he has visited other collectors in his own vicinity. If he is interested in recent political and military affairs, Tokyo may not be the place to start. And in any case, harshly criticizing someone for liking something that offends your sensibilities (or your sensei) seems intolerant. Peter

Paul, I spent a half an hour trying to gcontribute 100 bucks to what seems like agood casue. But Paypal would NOT (!) let me in. and I couldn't get VISA to take my money either. Please, give me a better target and I'll ship you a Benjimen! Peter

Indeed this has been an interesting thread altho I have to say that I - at least mildly - disagree with each and every of Jean's principles! Thank you Jean. The basic "rule" I'd give to a new collector is Have a reason to buy the sword (tsuba/yoroi/whatever) you are buying. When you get home you should be able to complete the sentence, 'I bought this because...". If you answer that by saying "It looked good to me", or "The seller said it was good." and YOU know you don't know very much, then you should get smarter or make sure that you have a big basement. It is easiest to have an answer to this question if you have: 1) bought and read some books, 2) met and assessed some other collectors and their collections, and 3) figured out how Japanese swords are bought and sold. As an aside, I will add that IF you buy something because it is cheap, you better be sure that you know how to SELL Japanese swords. Peter

Ford, Thanks for the replies. This has been the most informative and exciting thread I have read on the NMB! There was a time when I was way into dote-mimi Katchushi guards. I still like them and have a bunch. In response to this thread, I've gotten them out and seen lots of new details. Once again, thank you. Peter

Take a look at KADOKATSU Peter

Ford, I would beg answers to lots of technical questions. Here are a few. 1. Can you tell use what kind of "steel" you used? Is it old or otherwise special? 2. How many annealings were involved in raising the rim? and I am not certain about the raised rim. 3.Was it only on one side of the disc, or did you raise it so that it spread toward both sides? Again, thanks! This is really a treat. Peter

Thank you. This was informative - technically and aesthetically! It has made me go back and look at some katchushi guards I thought I knew pretty well. Peter

What Chris said. Peter

These certainly do look saya/tsuka sized. They seem too light to be drifts or swedges for fuchi-kashira production. Are they forms for making non-metal fittings? Peter

This is a great exercise, but I remain unconvinced - and awaiting an answer. Peter

Oh, I see. so it is ponounced "Shozui"?

Well, gee. I am NOT convinced - and I don't want a cigar!. If it is not 5004, it is 5021- which refers us back to - ahhh - 5004 Please give us a nelson number - for those of us who recall the 360 to the dollar yen! Peter

Well, gee. The character is "Naga" or "mama" as in Nelson 5004. But I have no idea how it might be read in a kozuka mei. Peter

The date looks to me like Sho-o gennen - 1652, And I see the mei as Bizen Iemori A pretty interesting signature, a full 70 years newer than my first impression. those eaily Shinto are a riddle! Peter

Jean, Thanks for sharing this message. There is no question that sword maintenance has to be rationalized. The costs and risk of sword servicing are too great. And as a result sword preservation is threatened. No one wants to send a sword off for a year and half, pay the freight, get a polish and a saya, and then find out that it is not what we were hoping for. Likewise, we all have swords that are kind of nice but unworthy of costly service. In light of collecting realities, it makes little sense to risk a polish. Collectors need support, help, and fair early advice. Likewise, the leaders of the field need to recognize that a range of services is necessary, and out there. Instead of insisting that there are only worthy polishes, and instead of simply castigating some polisher and assuring us that others are worth the extra cost, we should be helped to find the services that are right for the particular swords we are dealing with. Finally, we need more polisher and to do that we need more business for them - even while they are learning. I think Aoi-san has done us a service Peter Bleed

KIYOMITSU saku can't believe I got to one that hadn't already be rendered! Peter