Peter Bleed

Dear Friends, A friend and I are working up a brief paper that describes 4 "tantos" that his Dad brought home after the War. In fact the "tantos" are all sword tips that were removed from bigger blades. I assume that these were blades that had been "destroyed" in response to early Occupation rulings, but that the parts had been salvaged by Japanese who were on the scene - if not actually involved.. All of these "tanto" were mounted in koshirae that had also been cut down.There is some pretty good kodogu, but both blades and the koshirae have been been seriously diminished. This treatment and what it says about Japanese swords and their history will be the topic of our paper. The tantos all accompanied by origami in Japanese and something like English. These papers were issued by a sword dealer from Kyoto named "Ittosai Yoshimune" I googled that name and found this interesting1946 newspaper article http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/42483679?searchTerm=like%20a%20samurai&searchLimits= Who was IttosaI? Is anyone familiar with him or his operation? And what about other evidence of recycling swords that were "destroyed" right after the War Peter

This looks like a tricked out modern Chinese - - fake. Peter

What a great thread. Thank you all - and just think of how Ford might being his time if he weren't engaging us in this wonderful topic. Lest we become too sectarian, I have to suggest that few of those "300,000 Christians" were likely to have been deeply versed in the doctrinal implications that term might suggest. These were guys on "this" side rather than"that" side of Kyushu Sengoku-jidai politics. I also do not think that many of these neat tsuba date from before the Edo period. Peter

How do you spell bubble in Japanese? I am trying to make the point that a huge collections of great swords in provincial museums are not likely to enhance long term survival of sword appreciation . Duming these large bodies of top grade swords would have to drive prices down. But putting them on display this way is not likely to seriously help the next generation of experts and enthusiasts. I certainly hope this Musuem has a active education and outreach program. Peter

I can only add to what has been said Brian and John are terrific. One could wish that they were under-utilized worker bees who do nothing but grind out what we want. Working with them involves a wait. Simple shira-saya should NOT be that big a deal - it sure isn't in Japan so I recently tried to explore some other options and I was VERY disappointed. A bad shira-saya really does NOT work. Go with Tirado, and be patient!. Peter

Thank you ALL for a wonderful - and truly thought-provoking - discussion. I don't collect Ju-to and truly don't aim to, but this discussion helps me understand the basis of this activity we call Japanese sword collecting. Peter

I was able to visit the Stibbert museum last week while in Florence. We were not there when they offer tours of their Japanese collection, Still, I found the visit amazing!. As others have said, you have to schedule your visit in advance and then you are walked thru under the supervision of a minder. Our supervisor was a nice young fellow who seemed to know nothing about the collections But he was intent on keeping us moving and making sure that NOTHING was touched, One fellow in our group made the mistake of touching the glass of one of the - rare - display cases. He was immediately and firmly chastised,Thank you!. The European armor that fills much of the house is impressive and the vast array of stuff that lines the walls is rather easy to inspect. But there is NOT one label you you have to bring your own expertise. The other important feature is that this is a "house museum". It is about the very rich Mr. Stibbert - not the stuff he collected. He bought a LOT of great stuff, but the Museum presents HIS view of the world. It does not reflect modern understandings or appreciation of the stuff he gathered. Right there is a is a presentation of St. George slaying the dragon! And a stuffed dragon is part of the display. How cool is that? I'll be they don't have a dragon at Leeds! There are several publications on the museum, its history, and collections. These seem worth having, although the quality of the Japanese materials they present is - well - so-so. The blades that are described seem pretty ordinary. Likewise the tsuba are the usual showy stuff. I have to suspect that the collection would likely have some shinsa problems! What I found interesting is that there were lots of swords that were purchased - for BIG prices - in the early 1870s. That is to say that much of this collection was formed while swords were still being worn in Japan. As such it is a statement about sword use and availability rather than sword history and development. When you are in Florence, this sure is worth a trip! Peter

Hey, wait minute. Steve is calling ME an "old guy.". Holy cow. James, your babies will not starve if you buy this sword. It also won't take much room in your basement. If you keep hunting, learn from each discovery, build a library, I am pretty sure that this sword will move to your basement. Sword hunting is THE American style of sword collecting. You are following a well-traveled path. Good luck. Peter

Why would anyone want this sword? If i ask that question I can't come up with an answer. James, You have gained some insights and information by considering this sword, But its is not worthy. Keep looking. And Ray is right,Those things are shinae Peter

Steve is right about the year.and I also think the reference is to a rather specific piece of holy real estate. And I like the Yoshimasa call is very reasonable, too! Again, this has beenfun! Peter

I have only begun to think about what I'll be bringing to Chi-town, but I am looking forward to being there and filling up my table. I've got a nice clean gendai-to and a couple of soft medal tsuba that I hope will attract some interest. More to the point what are YOU going to be bringing? I'm in the market for Sendai shinto. Any, hey, don't forget your Ainu stuff! Peter

An interesting bit of challenge. I read the date as Bunka 6, so that would be 1809, in November. But to figure out where/how he made this you need to know a bunch of local landmarks and temples Great fun,thanks Peter

We might even point out that the "Board" appears to have given this fellow pretty limited information. The seller might have been interested in knowing that General Minami was found guilty as a Class A War Criminal (he was not killed and was let out of jail in the early 50s) and that these swords were given to winners of a kendo competition. A couple are known. Peter

Dear Friends, I may be picking at a scab with this message, but I am very uncomfortable with the way our discussion of Noel Perrine's book developed. I am sorry if my sarcastic style offended anyone. irony can be misdirected. At the same time, I do not feel prepared or disposed to address the chapter and verse of Perrine's book. What I do feel like doing is fostering a nice friendly conversation about pre-modern Japanese weaponry. Can't we all just get along? Toward that end please let me present the attached image of a set of gunner's tools I bought in Sendai many years ago.This kit was discovered "in a mountain village" and was offered to me a the tools of a "matagi". The Matagi were essentially commercial hunter who produced hides and bush meat during the Edo period. The mountains of the Tohoku supported lots of these folks who hunted with matchlock guns. In fact lots of rural folksin Tohoku had matchlocks up thru meiji times . The kit shown here also indicates that these hunters ground there own gun powder. These guys were not samurai, but matagi must have operated on the margins of the Daimyo system. In any case, this kit clearly indicates that there were folks in Japan who had not given up the gun. The existence of kits like this indicates that guns were part of Japanese technological inventory thru the Edo period. The niche they filled was minor - - but present. Separating rural mountaineers' guns from samurai arms is something collectors might want to be able to do. Peter

Well, gee. This story has developed faster than I thought it might. And Thank you, Steve. I owe you another one! I got a call at my office number from a fellow who lives - literally - around the corner from me. He and his dog walked over yesterday with this rig. More later. I looked at it on our front porch and asked about its history. Actually, it wears a lot of its history, More later. But my neighbor told me it had been on eBay where it had attracked some attention and that "a guy" told the seller to contact me. (What are the chances that anybody would EVER, get a contact via eBay?). Apparently they also checked me out with some local antique scouts and gun slicks. And, taahhhh dahhhh, it shows up on my front porch and I have to beat the eBay price - which I did. Now, John I hope you will explain your post. Are you saying this is mere mid-Edo "bling"? I wouldn't disagree altho I am not sure that one should be too dismissive of such stuff. And the rest of the rig? Well, it had been a pretty nice looking late shinto town sword, But it has also had some rough treatment and spent too long in a wet basement. Tsuka is essentially gone. The blade is stained with a broken tip. Construction is visible -hiro-suguha with solid itame - and it will certainly polish well. It is signed Mishina Tashima Kami KANEMITSU. Looks ubu but there is a silver-filled ana near the jiri. I'll post a picture if anybody want to see one. Peter

Eshu (or is it Koshu)Takaki ju Kuni... and it is cut off there

Dear Friends, I find myself in possession of a tsuba that looks interesting but that i cannot not begin to assess. This is a small katana sized guard, 6.7x7.4 c. It is unsigned but in nice condition. I am impressed that the diamond shape in the 1:00 position of the omote surface is rather nicely outlined with ito-sukashi. Coool. Any advice about what to call this pieces. School, age, etc? Thanks Peter

Ed, I think you are right, but it took me a lot of looking for a "Masakiyo" before i recognized what you were seeing. Thanks for the exercise! Peter

Eric, I am sorry if I have offended you. Indeed, I have tried to make it clear that I respect Perrine for having opened consideration of guns in Japan and Japanese history. I am also sorry if my assessment of that book and its basic message offends with your assessment. It isn't a bad book IMHO, it just isn't right. I don't own a copy of the book at the moment so I can't give you chapter and verse. I did provide citations to pod casts and blogs that do offer specific and substantive criticisms of Perrine's book and argument. Peter

I think that Steve is correct. These things are called "YAGO" and they were like house crests for common families. They were still being used in rural Japan in the 1980s to mark family gear. They let every bring dishes and cloths to group events and them get all their own stuff back home. They were certainly used in Edo times, too, of course. The interesting thing to me was that these were created and read rather like kanji. But they were also somewhat simpler than formal kanji. Thus a family with the surname -say - Yamamoto, could draw a picture of a mountain that would be read "YAMA." Then the oldest son's family could put an ichi in that picture of a mountain. It then became a symbol that could be read "Yama Ichi." And that houses' stuff could be differentiated from the property of the stuff belonging to the house that descended from the second son. Their stuff would be marked with a 2 under the picture of the mountain. That yago would be read "Yama-Ni". Merchants and dealers also used these things and you see them today on things like soy sauce and sake. Bottom line, Howard, is that I think this mark is a statement about who used to own this vase rather than who made it. Peter

I agree with Brian, The sword shop is a terrific image. Steve, please tell us about it. Peter

Eric’s message doesn’t really ask a question or offer a criticism that needs to be addressed. Still, in citing my comments as a contrast to his own positive assessment of Noel Perrin’s volume, it seems that Eric is wants to discuss firearms technology in Japan. I feel no need to argue about this. My comments about Perrin’s book were not intended to be harsh. “Giving Up the Gun…” was popular because it offered a very simple – and simplistic – treatment of a topic that people found interesting. A major reason this thin book was popular was because – as Eric points out – it dealt with a topic that had been overlooked. Old school Japan-hands ignored technology and material culture. Chado? “Yes, really important. It explained all you need to know about Japan” Budo? “Well, not so much. Ruffians did that stuff, not aesthetes” Haiku and Noh? “Oh, For sure! Really important” Tatara? “What’s that?” Perrine told us a story that was simple and interesting. It also matched the interests of sword collectors. Swords? “Ahh, yes, they’re the soul of the Samurai” Tanegashima? “We see those from time to time, but nothin’s been published on them.” I went back this afternoon and re-read Sir Sansom’s history and it was embarrassingly how little he knew about events like Nagashino. “The muskets were still rudimentary weapons, muzzle-loaded and fired by tinder,” (sanson 1961:287) OMG! This is the level of scholarship that get’s a guy knighted? OMG! I think we know more now because sword students and others have pointed out that solution to real world material problems really matter. Perrine got us thinking about guns, and with thought we have come to know more. Guns were a solution to real world problems. And after 1603/16, those problems changed dramatically in Japan. That is why guns went out of vogue. The Japanese hadn’t forgotten them, they simply didn’t NEED guns as they had. If anyone wants to think about “giving up the gun” in a new way, I suggest these podcasts. http://www.sengokufieldmanual.com/2013/02/giving-up-myths-part-i.html http://samuraipodcast.com/ep05-the-myth-of-samurai-giving-up-the-gun Peter

Ed, Thanks for opening an interesting discussion. I too have been interested in these very late Japanese copies of simple European pistols. As others have said, these weapons deserve serious study. As others have said, regional powers were buying modern firearms in the Bakumatsu era. Clearly modern long guns were being acquires and issued to factional forces. I think the kinds of pistols that Ed has invited us to consider MAY form a slightly different category of weaponry. I have scant information, but I THINK instead of weapons of organized military forces, I suspect that these diverse, hand-crafted Japanese copies of European carry guns might have been personal arms used by individuals who felt the need for concealable guns during the EARLY Meiji era. These guns are Japanese manufactures, but they never seem to have signatures or other makers' information. They often look like one-offs. And they never seem to have ka-mon or others unit marks. They look to me like "Saturday Night specials'. That is to say, carry guns that would even a fight. There were factions and thugs galore at this time in Tokyo and fighter who could afford a sword probably could afford one of these little bangers. They sure are neat! Peter

Eric, Sorry if I was off-hand or cryptic. In 1979 and thoughtful guy who knew very little about Japan - Noel Perrin - wrote book called "Giving up the Gun..." He said that the Japanese had copied European firearms in the 16th century - very well - but then proceeded to "give them up". For that reason the Japanese had to once again copy European firearms designs after they were forced into the modern world - yahhh dahhhh yahhh dahhh - in the 1850s. This story became very popular suggesting to some folks that 1) the Japanese are copiers or 2) peaceful, or 3) that disarmament can happen or 4) that it can't. It has also been the subject of lots of discussion as to whether or not it is true that the Japanese ever really and truly "gave up the gun." Sources like the one we are discussing here clearly show that the Japanese did not simply or completely 'give up the gun'. Peter

Thank you Randy. This is an interesting source. Do we know the author or where it was written. The "Giving up the Gun" crowd now have more they have to ignore. Peter