Peter Bleed

I agree with Stephen - on both points... Peter

A friend recently presented me with a volume entitled “The Stories Behind the Treasures of World War II” by Bill Shea. I recommend the book. In fact, there seem to be several volumes in this series and I have not seen them all. Shea is a serious militaria dealer, but he seems to have carefully recorded how and when items of his discovery were acquired by the GIs who brought them home. Virtually all of his material is 3rd Reich German stuff. I have no particular interest in that gear but his stories are very interesting if only because it seems to me that the accounts that came home with European souvenirs are essentially different from the stories I either discovered or heard regarding Japanese souvenirs. Is it possible that German militaria was collected differently than comparable Japanese material? Was the Occupation of Japan different from the process in Europe? Was the IJA simply different from the Werhmacht? Certainly, Japanese soldiers appear to have worn fewer pips and dingleberries than their German allies. Could it be that Japan was poorer or more completely destroyed than Germany? Or did GI’s only have eyes for really good stuff – ie. Japanese swords? Peter

Well, gee. As Jeremiah said, we really need better information on the hada. Pending that, I would respectfully endorse your assessment. Still, there are a couple of factors that suggest it is NOT a Sendai shinto. If you are seeing real nijuba, that would point me to koto Yamato den. And the nakago does not look like Kunikane style, It could be cut down, of course, but the file work looks, ahhh, relaxed. Also it looks like the blade has been substantially thinned. Pre-shinto, mebbe??? Cries for shinsa. And Thanks. P

I'll tell you what these are. They're wonderful! Peter

Sounds like the Edo period pieces that are described as "gardener's tools" or "bonsai" blades. Peter

I'll go a step further than George and Ray, I think this could be some manner of damage to the tang. To my eye it is both skilless and odd. It doe NOT look to me like a Bonji. Is it possible that we may be discussing an ink blot. Peter

I had a blade that was similar to this sword - gonome hamon with running straight itame hada verging to masame. It got Tokubetsu Hozon to Bizen Kozori....I was surprised, if not disappointed Peter

Thank you Ray. I would not have considered this blade very carefully had it not been for you encouragement. Peter

A couple more Kanzan sayagaki, A su-yari by Kunisuke and a Shinshinto katana by Shiroishi Sadatoshi - Sato sensei wrote them for me and - unfortunately I saw him write "Shirakawa" rather than Shiroishi. But I didn't think it was my place to call him on this, ahhh, matter. Peter

Well, gee. I took a dismissive hipshot at a sword that on the surface is NOT worth deep thought or careful consideration. When this sword was made, swords were deeply needed and quickly used. It doesn't matter! It is obviously a mass produced weapon. And it is all right for us to dismiss it. In fact the name Tadamitsu seems to have been used by a bunch of smiths - some of whom were skilled. Simply looking at this sword should let us see that this ain't in that category. Thinking deeply about swords like this is not a good use of our time. I should have followed my own advice and stayed out of the conversation. Please forgive me. Peter

I think you can assume that this is NOT a gimei. Likewise, I think you can just assume that it dates from the 1500s. Why not, and what else is it gonna be? This looks like a working sword of the Sendgoku-jida. It is not in bad shape so I think it could be put into a shirasaya and "collected." If it were submitted to shinsa I doubt that it would be bounced - simply - as a gimei. The fact that it looks like it has a big section of the shinogi-ji ready to fall off seems more serious. This is a real sword IMHO. Peter

In fact, it looks to me like at least some of the fittings might be legit. The kashira is on upside down, but it looks okay IMHO. P

Long before I got to the end this thread, this "sword" struck me as modern stuff. Who would be fooled by such obviously new stuff? I assume that it is Chinese. That is sure how it "looks". I also have hard time believing that it could be made in Japan. Maybe it could be signed there, but there are laws about things like this in Japan. Peter

It is rust. Leave it alone and it will either come off and stay like it is. P

My bet would be late koto, early 1500s or just a bit older. The standard quip whenever you see sanbonsugi hamon is, "Ahh, yes, this is by Kane somebody," P

So Ray has given us "an open book test." Is that a Kaei Gennen, or 1848 and I'm staying with the winter. Fun project, thanx P

well, gee, even with the answer I can't see it, but it may have happened in winter - mebbe P

crappy pic, somebody FUYU... P

This is a trinket - IMHO, I don't think it was made to be functional. Peter

What Steve said! Peter

Hmmm, good question, Chris. Of course, the major part of the IJA was disarmed in China with lots of that material being smoothly transferred/repurposed into Chinese forces. Bits of data gleaned from inspection of odd pieces I have seen suggested that the Chinese military was hard on their gear. Thus, stuff that came home in a dufflebag before being hung above the mantle may be the best that there is ... left. And taking another big step, can it be that - statistically speaking - nice clean noncom swords are "rarer" ( and therefore a better investment) than - say - 16th century koto? Peter

Let me agree with Bruce and add my enjoyment of this story. Thank you Dan, for responsible treatment of a historic arm. If the world ever needs a grand history of WWII era Japanese military swords it will have to be written based on observations and research done my American collectors. There must be information somewhere in Japan on the production and design of these swords, but it seems not to have barely surfaced. The bayonets I have seen in Japan were all really beat up and I never recall seeing anything like Type 32 swords. I think that means that the stuff and the interest seems to be solidly "over here.". Does anyone know if weapons like the Type 32 amd Non-com swords can be imported back to Japan? Do they need to be registered? When it comes to preservation of "samurai" swords, we can draw on the standards and expertise of Japanese collectors. For Non-com swords etc, WE may be defining the standard. You are making the rules, Dan! Peter

Bruce, Indeed, I follow the NMB closely enough to know that folks here are seriously interested things other than "artistically created" or "ancient objects". In fact I have a small piece coming out in the next JSSUS NL on katchushi tsuba. In it, I try to argue that some/many of the pre-Edo era tsuba that we can still find were so plainly and uniformly produced that they may NOT deserve to be assessed as "ornaments" or "art." They may be well-crafted and legitimate weaponry. And in that case, treating them like "militaria" seems fair. Peter

Thank you All!, It is always interesting for me to discover the margins of sword knowledge/interest on the NMB. I asked this question because a friend had asked me essentially the same question (You can guess why he asked....). I have seen some of these blades and I appreciated the opportunity to get out Jim Dawson's Cyclopedia (what a nice book!). I truly believe that we ALL ought own a copy of this book. Japanese sword collecting is a social activity. We learn how to collect. And we follow cultural patterns when we do. This case makes it look like brass handled artillery swords are 1) unusual and 2) odd enough to be below our radar screen.It also once again points to a tension within our hobby between "art" and "militaria." Thank you all, once again, for helping me enjoyed Japanese blades - - of lots of different types Peter

Is anyone on the NMB interested in brass handled artillery swords? Peter