Peter Bleed

Andi and Brian. I have appreciated this discussion - even if I am to sure that I have followed it all. I think discussions like this may depend of bright individuals, BUT they are easiest to follow when real parts and objects can be observed. Thanks for you presentations! I also have not had very much experience with this lock style. The world is a complex place! Peter

Dee, thank you for this recollection. Clearly, in addition to world-wide interest in 'militaria' there seems to be an audience for well-made recent military blades in Japan. There should be respect for historical items ( I'm trying to tap dance around bunka-zai). I completely do NOT understand the removal of star stamps. The NBTHK is - let's remember - about "art swords" so leadership on this issue may have to come from another organization. It may well be that leadership in this area well have to come from collectors outside of Japan. Peter

Well, gee, I have learned a lot. My basic aim was to argue that American and Western "collectors" have assembled information on the recent history of Japanese swords that (I thought) was outside the view of Japanese sword "aesthetes." My horizons have been widened. Thank you Dee, Steve, and Bruce. I imagine that collectors will have to decide what is interesting and desirable. I bet it will also be a while before there are displays of gunto at the Sword Museum. In 100 years I also bet there will be judgements made about exactly how Showa stamps and Seki marks were treated and which variations are "desirable." But when will Fuller and Gregory be awarded a Sacred Treasure? Peter

Clealry, semantics matter. My interest is in BLADES rather than FITTINGS (koshirae). Clearly Ohmura-sama's presentations shows that some Japanese collectors are interested in military fittings. "Machine made" blades seem not to be legal in modern Japan, altho they certainly were made by expert craftsmen who drew on traditions of Japanese cutlery. Producing gunto blades was also a difficult process that certainly involved great skill. They were also signed and finished in very Japanese manner. Officially, "machine made blades of the Showa era" seem not considered "Nippon-to", but I have to wonder if (and sincerely hope that) some Japanese individuals or organizations (musuems, Seki-area cutlery organizations ???) might be interested in having information of this phase of sword history. If they exist, they should well draw on the work done by American and Western collectors. Peter

I am curious about the audience for machine made blades of the WWII era. One of the first skills that “serious” American collectors needed to gain in the old days was how to separate “gunto” from “samurai swords.” Modern “machine-made” swords were pretty much ignored. It took a couple of English collectors – Fuller and Gregory, thank you!– to begin paying attention to the fact that gunto were signed and dated. As market forces made it harder to find and collect pre-modern blades (ie. they got expensive and harder to “find”), collectors’ scholarship about wartime blades began to grow and even flourish. “Military swords” have become a serious topic and a reasonable and interesting focus for many collectors. The question I would ask is if this excellent research is at all interesting to folks in Japan. Are Japanese archives paying attention to your work, Bruce? Peter

This has been a very interesting discussion. Thnak you Gerry and Jussi. It also makes me glad to be a collector of mere Shinto! Peter

Yep, it is a Yoshisada, and we could have guessed he was a Seki smith even before Bruce showed us the sword from his index. This community really works! Peter

It looks like the NBTHK has a presence here on the Token Message Board and that is a positive result. Sword appreciation is enhanced when collectors can communicate with one another and share information. Organizations like the NBTHK can support communication between collectors. Both collecting and communication technology have changed greatly over the past generation. It also turns out that collector interest is diverse. The NBTHK focuses on “bijutsu token”, or art swords and they proudly keep their focus on “art.” Taking that focus after the War, contributed to the survival and preservation of lots of swords. Individual collectors might not agree with or fulfill the high standards of the organization, but that’s the way it is. It is an elite organization, thank you. The Token Message Board provides the modern world with a wide range of sword interests and expertise.

I can't see/read Hashimoto-san's first name, but he made this pieces in at a place in Higo called something like Shita-chi. . . . oh, and this is really nice looking guard. Peter

Dear Friends, I'd like to find out how many members of this on-line community are members of either the NBTHK, or the American Branch of that organization. Are you a member? Peter

I think those are the same kanji but different stylistic renderings. Peter

Sam, Indeed, this is an interesting sword. It is certainly highly collectible. Can you tell us anything about it's history? Peter

Bruce! You only THINK this makes sense. Indeed, I see the HORI, but you also bring me back to the worst days of Japanese class! Peter

This signature sure looks "long" to me and the jiri looks odd as well. Its as if the nakago was cut off to fit the signature -- but that isn't the way things were done. This is rather odd, not "bad", maybe just odd. Peter

Neat sword, but I'm not able to see it all and I have checked the date, but it LOOKS TO ME(!) like this sword was make by a couple smiths Fujimitsu and TADAMITSU who worked in Bizen in the early 1500. Way Cool! Peter

Ricky, This looks like a good pre-modern sword. Obviously, it has not been polished in a long time, but based on shape (and some experience) I bet it would polish just fine. The kissaki ( the pointed end) Based on what we can see, there is no way of knowing if it would be worth the cost of a polish, tho - should we say that will involve two thousand bucks and a year's wait. (Now, nobody here would recommend that you do any polishing on you own, but in the real world lots of guys have explored non aggressive, nongrinding ways cleaning to make sure that there is a hamon and no serious hiding flaws.) The saya could also be fixed up so you would have nice samurai sword. I LOVE the guard (the tsuba , tut-tut). Lots of us like those old "armorsmith" dote-mimi guards which might date from before 1600. And it looks like the seppa between the tsuba and the habaki is backwards, turn it arround. Peter

As I start to read - and absorb - this work, I am greatly impressed by the effort it has involved. This is serious work and a real contribution to sword history. Is anybody in Japan following, or absorbing, it? Peter

Thank you for showing us this blade.It is very interesting and certainly deserves preservation and attention. BUT< I am not sure how it should be preserved. Given traditions of Japanese swords, I think it should be polished, but how should that be done? How would/should the bullet deformation be treated? And how should the saya be preserved. Putting it in shirasaya might be hard, but certainly the blade and the gunto saya have to remain Linked. Frankly, I think this is a blade that should be considered by the NBTHK - but I bet it wouldn't be let in Japan! Thanks and best wishes! Peter

This is an interesting and important discussion. The ways that Japanese swords were treated - by the Japanese, by the US occupying forces, and by the the mass of individual Americans who saw them suitable souvenirs all deserve to be considered. And sure, Col. Cadwell was important - which is why his bronze bust is there in the Musuem. But other responsible Japanese were actively trying to make their occupiers aware of the importance and interest if Japanese. In 1947 - when people were hungry and unhoused, Inami Hakusui and Honma Junji produced english language books seeking to educate GI's about swords. All of that deserves attention. Not to mention John Yumoto. But we shouldn't ignore or overlook the efforts of Japanese folks to get back swords that had been taken from their country after the War. A few serious Japanese individuals came to America to buy swords in the early 1960s, but they had limited success. Takahashi Nobuhide-sama, a gentleman and an artist, told me that he had gone to California looking for swords, but decided that they had all been destroyed becasue he couldn't find any. Remember, too, that Ogawa Morihiro first showed up in America -- at the Chicago Sword Show!. As swords moved from garage sales and gun shows, there were some serious attempts made by Japanese individuals to buy back swords. They figured out where the swords were and how to get them bought. That is when prices rose, when a number of serious buyers became active - servicing Japanese buyers. Newspapers in even small cities ran "wanted to buy add" several times a year. That whole process deserves attention. To understand Japanese swords in the world today, we really have to recognize the role played by gunshow hustlers and fleamarket pickers in the post-War era. Peter

I appreciate these nice comments. Indeed, this list is a fine community that helps a wide range of folks interested in Japanese swords. "Sword collecting" certainly is not the activity it once was and there is a great generation shift going on. Isn't it interesting how "international" sword appreciation has become. The hobby I discovered depended on a disorganized mass of war souvenirs and a trivially small literature. Now, thanks largely to communities like this one and the labor of folks like our dear Brian (thank you thank you!), information is readily available. There was a time when we had to teach ourselves how to read signatures. And it was a slow process. B. W. Robinson taught us how to count strokes and read the kanji so that we could dig thru Hawley and find what mattered. Golly it was fun, but now all that information can be provided expertly - and really rather politely and positively - in a matter of hours. Thanks to this fine list!

Eric, please tell us about this sword. I read it as a wartime sword and had no idea that it is a true and laudable gendai-to. Peter

Yeah, I'm staying with Noshu Seki ju, Kanetoki, Nice crossfiled nice cross filed nakago, looks like a classic Seki. Is it gunto? Peter

Isn't that a "TOKI" KANETOKI,

Dear Friends, I have not had my ears on for a while, but it looks like am am back in the system. This is a wonderful community and I am especially interested in "collecting" so this thread is a wonderful time for me. In my opinion, there are three - count'em 3 - approaches to collecting, that is three strategies for assembling things. These approaches are 1) hoarding, 2) systematic collecting, and 3) quality collecting. 1. The hoarder just likes MORE. 2. The systematic collector understands the range and variation present in the items they collect and seeks to get "examples" of that range. Obviously this kind of collector needs to do continual research on the stuff they collect. They also emphasize distinctive characteristics and the differences and range between things. 3. Collectors who go for quality need to understand both the stuff they collect AND the standards that they and/or others have developed for their stuff. In my opinion each of these approaches is okay, but hoarders have the most freedom and personal control over their activities. Peter