Peter Bleed

The Token Message Board has, once again, proven to be a wonderful resource. Thank you Piers and Jon for your guidance – and the 50 odd folks who paid the discussion some attention and offered opinions. I am not sure that I adequately explained the topic of my interest, but as a result of the discussion, I am enriched. A part of my interest is in Japanese style guns modified during the late Edo and Meiji era was what those modifications do to the value of the altered guns. Dick Dodge (who was an active early re-imported of matchlocks to Japan) opined to me and others, that the primary determinant of matchlock values in Japan was the Tokyo police. His argument was that guns they judged legal could be imported to enter the Japanese market as antiques. Guns that they judged ”modern” could not be imported, and were therefore excluded from the Japanese market. Modified arms already in Japan could be registered. All this to say that I raised this question because I was kind of wondering about the value of these modified shooting irons. The information Jon shared on Murata shotguns interestingly shows that in Meiji times Japan had a hunting gun industry and folks who hunted game either commercially or for sport. By the 1880s there seem to have been folks who could get ahold of Murata bolt actions and insert in old and new guns. It would be interesting to know where this was done and why they sometimes used old guns. Tanegashima modified to use percussion caps seem to me to offer a potentially more interesting riddle. To my eye, these look like they might predate Meiji times so that they might reflect the dynamics of the terminal Edo period. As Piers notes, Sawada presents a great range of firearms that were imported into Japan throughout the later Edo period. Clearly, the Japanese were well aware of world firearms development. (For us sword collectors, it is also worth remembering that the Shin-shinto era was basically about re-arming and modernizing weaponry.) But, in Sawada’s 60 odd pages devoted to late Edo period guns, I see very few matchlocks modified to use percussion caps (page 175). Another (page 185) is shown right next to a tanegashima that was modified to use a Murata bolt action. The collectability of such arms, however, remains uncertain. Peter

Please allow me to beg the advice and insights of this community on modified tanegashima. Clearly, unmodified and original matchlock guns are the central interest to collectors, but I am curious about guns that seem to have been altered – maybe “modernized” – with non-traditional ignition systems. Caplock systems seem to be rather common, but I also have a gun that carries a Murata bolt action. Such “modernized” guns seem not to be treated in Japanese literature, even in volumes that treat 19th century imported arms. Are modernized matchlocks legal and interesting in Japan? Do they have a following internationally? Are there studies that address how and when these modifications were made? Peter

Well done, Steven! Nice job! Peter

Can anyone make out the Mei? I sure can't.. without a better picture. It looks like it cold be an interesting blade, but you'll need to show us a better pic. Peter Bleed - Little Rock, AR

I think this signature opens with "Bishu..." That opening, together with the shape of the nakago, suggests that the blade was make in Bizen, probably in the late 1500s. Peter

I fear that I might have been somewhat curt in my response to Thomas. Please forgive me. When I happened across this post, Thomas had asked "if anyone could please help me identify who might the sword maker be on this sword." That is what I tried to do. I gave the maker's name and added that the maker claimed a link to a place/group called "Seki". I also suggested that this sword was made generally around the time of WWII. The discussion that has followed may have brought back the trauma of my own Nihon-go classes. I would have said "saku kore" because that is what is written. But - hey - I learned from the very same texts that had been developed during the War and provided me with the ability to say useful things like "Lets ask the Cop standing on that corner." Please remember, too, that Japanese classes - supposedly - had the highest suicide rates of any US military detachments. However this signature might/should be rendered, I would encourage, Thomas to explore the wonderful research - done in English by people active on this web community - to begin studying about how and why swords were made during WWII --and before! Peter

Dude's name was KANEHIDE and he worked in Seki, which you can think of as suburban Nagoya during WWII. Peter

I have been "collecting" long enough to realize that sword collecting has changed. And it sure has changed! The people who are doing it nowadays are very different from the guys who used to do it. The ways swords are encountered is no longer how things used to enter "collections." And "we" sure seem to know things now that transcend the knowledge and wisdom that used to make a fellow "expert." There are as well lots of new networks, communities, and systems that impact how collections are formed - - and dispersed. We are currently presented with an interesting example of collection dispersion, and I'd like some advice on how to watch that process. As discussed in an earlier thread, Paul Davidson was a a wonderful fellow who assembled an outstanding collection. How do you think the collectors' community should treat this "event"? Will the sale be a spectator event? Will collecting become a spectator sport? I certainly expect to watch the sale develop, but I am not sure how to do that. Will people be checking in to the sale regularly. Do you have particular pieces you will watch? What have you got you eye on? What are you expectations? Peter

I feel way out of circulation. Can anyone tell me a good way to the English versions of Tanobe's books? Please and Thank you! Peter

Kris, Forgive me. I thought a useful first step might be to realize that the this signature may have been rendered rather unusually. If you - and others - think this mei does, indeed, proport that this sword was made and signed signed katana-mei, by someone named Sukekane, you can then begin looking to see if it - in any way - conforms to one or another of the Sukekane smiths. And, gee there are a couple of really important smiths with that name who worked in Kamakura times. And then the name popped up later - like during the Sengoku era. In that regard, I thought it interesting - and maybe significant - that this sword seemed to me(!) to have a nakago like other late koto Bizen blades. Clealry your sword deserves careful study. You are on the right path and now your challenge will be to assess the sword. Peter

Well, gee, I'd start by checking the SUKEKANE guys... Got a nice Bizen nakago

All of these issues are excellently addressed in Gina Barnes' book, "Archaeology of East Asia: the rise of civilization in China, Korea and Japan" (532pp. Oxbow Books, 2015).

Gustavo, I think that skilled treatment of Japanese style matchlock arms MIGHT be a potentially worthwhile specialty. The price frame you outline should be reasonable to folks with this interest, but I'd have to suggest that this will be a tough market. I doubt that folks in this country would be numerous and serious enough about competitive matchlock shooting to support your effort. And if guys are simply looking for noise makers, I doubt that they'd pay for quality replication. I co-taught a couple of NPS class on the archaeology of firearms and there certainly might be issues that could be studied and addressed in that regard concerning tanegashima. But the guns that I think might be worth study would be large caliber pieces. That research would not require historical accuracy. Finally, it is easy to predict that there will be a bunch of tanegashima collections that will be coming on the market in the next few years, and that MANY of those guns will be serious, expert and sensitive maintenance. That may not be the work you wish to do, but I think it will be an important effort. Peter

The issue becomes your definition of "accurate reproductions." Dixie Gun Works offered matchlock that sure looked shootable. They looked rather nice and sure seemed shootable, but they sold out and seem not to have been re-produced. What are you thinking, Gustavo? Peter

Hey, the dude was 76 years old. Maybe his penmanship was slipping. Or do I mean his chiselmanship? P

Dee, Thanks for sharing this. It find it remarkable! "Masamune Meets Forged in Fire!" I have forwarded it to some of local bladesmiths. I am deeply impressed at how surprised and respectful the Japanese smith is for both the tools - and the results - of modern bladesmiths. We may be right at the end of "Japanese" sword making! Peter

Actually, William, there is a guy in Arkansas who has a pretty fair library that would let you assess this signature - - ME! Let's get together and discuss it. In fact, my impression of this signature is rather positive. Peter Bleed - Little Rock!

Jackson, The world is a complicated place and I think that WE ought realize that "collecting" and "discovery" are the real rewards of collecting. Treating the swords we "discover" and "acquire" as "investments" is very difficult because values go up and down for both the stuff we acquired and the stuff we swapped away. I think we all must learn to enjoy the process of collecting rather then the things we acquire. Manchurian blades are pretty interesting, but realizing that involves moving them from "gun show" to "collector's" condition. It also involves moving them into the collectors community. There will be both delays and costs in doing that, and maybe some disappointment. It looks like you preserved a worthwhile sword and you can take pleasure in that. Peter

Let me boast. One of my proudest moments of my life as a collector was when an acquaintance was visiting. After looking around and visiting a couple of rooms, he said. "I thought you collected Japanese swords." P

Actually, it would be 1888, wouldn't it? Peter

Dan, Thanks for some interesting pictures! This comes from very near the end of the matchlock era, but it also has a rather modern manner of markings and notation. These guys may well have realized that things were about change. Peter

Andi., Thank you very much. Your explanatory approach is very good. I have rarely looked "inside" of the teppo I have ended up with, but the system we are discussing here strikes me as rathe rare. Is that the case? Peter

Andi and Brian. I have appreciated this discussion - even if I am to sure that I have followed it all. I think discussions like this may depend of bright individuals, BUT they are easiest to follow when real parts and objects can be observed. Thanks for you presentations! I also have not had very much experience with this lock style. The world is a complex place! Peter