Kam A

Ladies, Gentleman, I generally avoid forums due to time restraints and the fact that a lot of threads go from an informative and progressive playground to a retrograding arrogance laden conservative battleground. It seems people are most comfortable within their 4 walls of "facts" (sometimes these facts turn into urban myth) and are uncomfortable with the unknown. I have a rather diverse background that has allowed me to aquire information about a wide range of subjects that I am always happy to expand on and learn more. . . . but thats just me. In regards to the Chinese production sword market yes as a default of my occupation I have seen many (tooooooooooooo many). A client used to joke that I could smell the fakes before he had taken them from the bag (he used to buy large bundles of swords from auction houses). I have also acquired nihonto for next to nothing because the seller was wrongly informed (on some forum ) that it is a chinese fake, this includes a masamori hosokawa (now with nthk papers) and a Ono kenpaku yasutoshi. I also know too many stories of Gendaito being destroyed back in the 80's etc based on the then believed "known fact" that they are "NOT nihonto " just "oil quenched" trash.. . . .how opinions have changed . An informed opinion with facts. . . is just that an "informed opinion" welcomly received. An informed opinion without facts. . is well just an opinion. . . or for some maybe just perceived arrogance, which just discourages discussion and stiffles growth of knowledge. I am not concerned about being right or wrong just a desire to always expand my knowledge and to encourage others to share so we can all enjoy this hobby. . . I wonder how many newbies have been put off from the attitude of so called knowledgable forumites . In regards to the said blade I have offered some pionts with referances as has Jussi (thanks bud ) but considering the amount of posts the rest are just opinionated comments. I have a few more points to make based on the first lot of pics but might wait and see what else is offered in the way of info. Lastly (getting a bit close to becomming a rant) it does not affect anyone but the owner of this sword whatever this turns out to be so lets try to at least be informative. . . . Im sure I felt a couple of toes being stood on as I was typing this so I expect a few may not be happy, , a bit like Stewie from Family guy "I dont like change" so like Joe from American dad all I have to say (as I put on my fire retardent suit) is "bring it on". .. Kam

Guido. .a pleasure and I must say Thank you for the story. . struggling to keep myself occupied. . as for an expert if indeed I am then least it isnt an expert of B.S. Although so far I seem to be the only one whom does not have an opinion either way (this does not mean that there are aspects of this that dont interest my curiousity ) so I might have to wait a little longer before I can claim the tittle "expert :(" Kam :laughing:

hhhhmmm, I get the impression that many would prefer if we just call it a chinese production blade. . . . .personally I think I prefer to reserve judgment on more evidence either way. This way we can learn as so too does the OP. . . I know of too many bad calls based on belief and not knowledge based fact.. . . but feel free to call evens or odds if you prefer. I also think it important for the growth of knowledge to present information/diagrams/pics to explain or represent your view. I am yet to see anything either presented or discussed that would convince me of either possible origin. . . .oh and no a hunch is not evidence but it is sometimes a good compass although in this situation I think some facts would be preferable Kam

Elitist or dismissive either way if you can make a definitive conclusion based on those pics then I am thoroughly impressed. Stuck on the road I have just a ph and nothing else to do Anyway as for dead Noiguchi how much life is in the following pic? Kam

Hey Barry Yep it is :/ Still not a make or break in either direction....I have seen shinsakuto with noiguchi with less life than a dried toad. And I have seen plenty of activity in mono steel like before mentioned 5160. I am less inclined to make a call based on current info ..,ie bad photos. Kam

Hey Greg Thanks for posting some more pics but I think I am less informed (if it is indeed possible to retro grade in information) of what this sword is. I do think a few pics of the nakago would be helpful. These pics imply a possible result of manufacture in which the large grinding marks are not fully removed as they skip from something like 80grit to 360 grit and then through each stone to the final 2000 grit (production pieces). On the other hand it may very well be hada that is visually distorted via the pics. Kam

Hi Jussi I agree with your general assesment of the quality of chinese swords and I most definately agree that there is a good chance of this blade being one (huano used to make some pretty convincing hada) . . . . but unless someone has given this a quality polish once it has left the factory Im thinking not likely. . . . .style of hamon is common to the many shinsakuto on the market. I have been working with a couple of chinese forges over the last 8 or so years in a seperate business so I am familiar with the work and the polishes that can be applied. . . .some pics attached I have pretty well covered the points regarding the cheap and nasty koshirae. . . the fittings are common on the bottom lines from most of the forges and definately not strictly huano. A couple of thoughts on mono steel and hada. . . 5160 is a spring steel that shows some very interesting hada like activity including large nie particles and other atributes that can give it an appearance found on many shinshinto blades. depending on how it was smeltered w2 steel often gets a nashiji appearance and can display nie in the noiguchi depending on the yakiri. I am not convinced that what I am seeing on the OPs blade is a result of polishing alone. . . Realisticly without clear photos of the nakago and hada we can only speculate.. . . and I think we all can reserve the right to be wrong. . . I mean really we can only guess. Kam Lastly a Picture of shinsakuto. . note the hamon

Hey Greg Where abouts in Vic do you live. . . Nth East is very ambiguous. Kam

Because someone has to be in opposition I think a few better pics of the hada is important before making a call. Personally I think in this case this might be a legitimate Nihonto. . . The Koshirae is definately lowest (bottom of the barrel) grade possible for chinese junk. . . although I think someone might have had a shot at the tsuka. But the blade is of too high a quality to have started life in this tacky outfit. sooo judging the blade on its own merit, the polish is good, bohi is good and not representative of standard chinese production. This style of hada does not appear on production blades. The notare hamon can be found on chinese blades as can a tight noiguchi. . . but I have seen a couple of Yoshihara blades with a tight noiguchi. Nakago could have some better pics but from what I can see it isnt unreasonable to consider it might be legit. Conclusion. . . need better pics without pixlation. Kam

Jason $860. . . paid for the kesho polish (cheap) blade was free, so now you can consider this an OK outcome. Yes to the second question - www.jigokustudios.com.au Kam

Hi Jason I think the question is do you think spending 2G on a koshirae for any blade that you want to use for Iai/batto? I have expensive tastes but I am very practical so for me I would have no qualms spending the money on quality Koshirae for a Martial arts Blade. Would I select the blade accordingly?. . . most definately. Does it have to be Japanese made? . . No. I recently had a client spend over 2G having a mono steel blade mounted in a Koshirae. . . mind you this blade is now able to be used under duress and safely used in the field over long periods without concern. . . in this instance the client felt his money well spent. Once again we get what we pay for. . . in this case the clients profession dictates a necessity for quality and the price reflects this. Kam

Hi You may have missed the follow up post regarding koshirae in which I have covered these points. Personally I strongly suspect this is chinese made but reasonably well and as a bonus with a Kesho polish . . . It is what it is As for smiths that used this style Hada, the 2 commonly referenced is Ikkansai Yoshihiro and WW2 smith Amahide. There were many more but these 2 will keep you busy. Kam

The cost of a Koshirae is high(approx $1500 for MA quality) but then a proper made Koshirae is structually sound so therefor a whole lot safer than the mass produced rubbish currently available and the quality visually apparent. Through the years I have seen sooo many Hanwei, cheness and last legend katana. . all have extremely poor koshirae with some being a bit better than others. Personally I would never use one of these blades in the Koshirae they come in. . . . also something to think about (I think about this often) is how much is a fair price? I remember in the 80's all we had was thin stainless steel in a shape suggesting a katana from spain with plastic handles or alluminium blades (iato) from Japan but with better quality Koshirae. A Stainless Toledo steel Katana could sell back then for $800. Now we can get carbon steel with correct geometry and a true hamon. . . . I think we are becomming a little bit "entitled" with our expectations and how much we think is a fair price. A good Koshirae is time consuming and quality materials expensive so it is only natural that the cost should reflect this expense. . . . . but even then I have had clients with extremely deep pockets winge about price and make unrealistic demands. I guess it comes down to the old saying you get what you pay for KAM

For what it is worth I think it is chinese but you did better with this than those hanwei blades. . . I agree the nakago is a bit of a mess and the hada is common on china blades. . . . . . . but we also had a thread were this type of hada was discussed and a number of Japanese smiths that used it. Some of the blades comming out of china are extremely well made and at the risk of destabilizing someones perception of the world I would say that many are structually supperior to the muji hada poor sugata shinsakuto being sold for Iaido and tameshigiri in Japan. Kam

Bob, I'm sorry but I think the horse is dead . . put down the club and let the Jockey go! I could answer all the points you have raised but. . . the poor horse If necessary I will entertain any questions you pose. . but still. . . he's not getting up. . Maybe a moment of silence in honor of the distance and pain he had endured that has brought him to this point in time. R.I.P Horse Kam

HHHHMMM, if you are convinced I would be happy to sell you a handful of these . . . . bargain basement prices. While I think it is prudent to be cautious passing judgment on photos I am very much inclined to believe that this is most likely a fairly decent attempt at a re-worked chinese damasc blade that have been bouncing around the market place since the late 80's early 90's. These blades are very low carbon (.2) and not able to hold a true edge. We tried on a number of occasions to "re-work" the steel but always concluded that they must be mild steel, ie not possible for yakiba.I will add to this point below Before going on I will just piont out that Instead of repeating what I previously stated I will just say that I stand by my previous comments and will add a few more points. The nakago - looks to have been done on a belt sander and not yasuri with the exception of the munemachi. Sugata- I have a couple that have a Bizen Koto Tachi appearance including amost bizen shaped Nakago. . . but still just folded mild steel made in china. Anyone that has some artistic skill and has experience in bladesmithing could clean one ie; Clean up the nakago and add yasuri to all sides (omote and ura can be reasonably done on a belt sander if one has the experience) These blades usually have a true yokote. . nothing to do there. Hada. Typical alternating/laminated steel of varying carbon content (still too mild to for yakiba and definately no noiguchi) And I guess the big give stand out point is that these blades are often Sanmai in construction using mono steel as the edge to give the impression of a Hamon. This blade looks to have just this type of construction with what appears to be a slight (miniscule) seperation between the inserted edge and the body of the blade. As for the Koshirae this definately appears to have been a mix of legit pieces added to a fake blade. . .rest is covered in previous posts. Finally from a personal view I would like to add that over the years I have seen a few legitimate blades get the chinese tag due to paranoia of "the insidious chinese scammers" (seems slightly racially prejudice). This fear has allowed a few opportunistic collectors to pick up some amazing gems from china. Including one which I obtained via a very discerning client whom had no qalms honestly stating he had bought it out of china.. . . I later had this blade verified as legit. I have also sold a number of high end blades to China over the years. And to top it off I have also seen chinese and indian fake items being sold out of Japan ( we all know Daimyo54) so really there is no Black and white rule, just knowledge and prudence. Kam

Hi Peter Firstly I reserve the right to be wrong... especially based on the current pictures Yes I have seen hada like this on a few of Gunto blades including one which looked laminated not forge folded. I do not believe the blade that the OP has presented is one. The jigane is etched to the point it has discernable texture and not polished smooth which would allow us to see into the steel. . hataraki etc. I have a stack of these type blades that have been donated to the "iron heap of disapiontment" by previous clients that have been burnt in the hopes of finding a hidden treasure. If i have time today I will dig one out and take a pic or 2. Lance I would say that pattern wise yes to Amahide but then most of the damasc blades out of china typically have that pattern. I have an Amahide here but it is not polished so pointless taking a pic. I have on the other hand taken one from Moses Becerras site for comparison. Also is an Emura from Aoiart whom also had wide and varied Hada. Lastly in regards to the Tsuka the only legit Gunto tsuka I have seen without hisghigumi is the Navel hiramaki tachigashira Tsuka. I have a pic of a low end tsuka and while it has been re-bound the new maki was true to the original and the core was not altered....yes this one had same panels Kam

Hi I do not think the whole thing chinese, but looks to be a original saya and fittings...ito even looks legit. The shape of the tsuka on the other hand is not promising. The blade I believe is chinese. Just speculation but I would suspect that this was assembled in the west and palmed of as a "my grandad" story. Kam

Hi All I could just be looking at bad pics that are not truly representative of the actual item but honestly think this is a chinese repo "dolled up" to look the part (I have seen these blades get fake Hadori and burnished shinogiji) So before we get to the blade just looking at the tsuka. . .it is a typical "sausage" often seen on amature attempts and the multitude of chinese reapos seen on ebay. From what I can see in the pic the habaki is definately questionable in size and shape. As for the steel. . . looks like the mild steel/low carbon style blades found on chinese repos. Typicallly slightly etched (I see actual texture from each layer) I see no Noiguchi nor an indication of where the yakiba is. I am a bit of a fan of Ikkansai yoshihiro and this is not representative of his jigane nor of Amahide. I have attached a pic of a Ikkansai yoshihiro as well as probably the most extreme Hada you would ever find on a Nihonto from Gassan Sadakazu. Just some thoughts and I could very well be wrong. Kam Ikkansai yoshihiro Sadakazu