KarlPeterSmith

Forget all the previous confusion regarding this school... no speculation.... just FACTS... as shown on each-and-every blade. It's just a shame the Yamashiro Master - Umetada Myoju never carved that elusive Hizen character that I've found the code in... that would have been very nice to have at the top of my list. We all change our names from time to time... Noriyoshi became JO MUNETSUGU... Hirosada>YOSHIIE>... Hironori>TADAKUNI... Muneyasu>MUNETSUGU(junior)... ... and we rarely (if at any time) change the way we write where-we-live. Hence the uniformity of this character during their many name changes... Of course... if your boss... 'your teacher' is telling you to identify yourself in the very 1st character on the blade then you 'kinda' work your name into it... or least use the chisel-code... number of strokes... direction of your chisel etc that identifies you. If any inferior goods are returned to the Smithy... heads-will-roll... as your boss knows who made it. A bit like an identifying-modern-product-date-stamp. I'm so confident in the CODE.. please POST the character HIZEN... frorn ANY 'Tadayoshi School' blade ...and I will tell you who signed it. The hand that held the chisel. Gauntlet thrown... any takers?

Maybe it's the part-German-ancestry (and precision) that keeps me holding this secret at bay till I can prove who EVERYONE is and not just ONE person... like TOSA for instance... and yes I know who he is too. It was a matter of 'knowing' something. The 'code' and where to go looking (on the sword)... every sword. WHY MY DELAY? Well I needed to reach a point where "if i show something, a blade for instance (signed)" and you say "it is by another sword-maker" I can immediately riposte - like i am doing so now. ....Isocyanide here's my email: orphichouse@yahoo.co.uk Sent me a pic of a blade (any) and I'll show you. You sound ok. I'll even talk to you on the phone. It is so huge that I was actually going to email the Japanese Embassy first. POST on here one of YOUR 1st Gen Tadayoshi blades which you think is signed by him AndyMcK and I'll publicly announce why it aint what you think it is..deal?

When you lift a few lines off HIZEN... and you read HIRONORI exactly they way he signs it... omg moment. All 1st Gen.Tadayoshi blades signed by himself ALL have lets-say... more interesting hamon... ...and all the Munenaga signed blades are 'flat-water'... 'fine-sugar'... no matter how they word it... lets say... blades you wouldn't cry over if you scratched one etching them (practicing). But its value would naturally increase once carved really well.

A few 'Masonic lodges' could benefit from what I've just learnt. I have only seen 3 swords actually signed by the hand of 1st Gen. Tadayoshi... 2 are dated 1601 and you can see the horimono detail improving as the years progress...i.e. Those sold at Christies (auction house) ... all are signed by MUNENAGA's hand (cousin and Horimono carver 1st Gen Tadayoshi studied with). I've seen a 1st Gen. Tadayoshi signed by Kunihiro (dated 1601) more clues as to how the swords overall look would develop... and a rare Tadayoshi signed by Jo Munetsugu (swordmaking priest) who was like a father to him... and eventually controlled all the Hizen Smiths... but you all know that already. If you THINK you have a 1st Gen. Tadayoshi signature> you don't > it's curently 100% a MUNENAGA. You'll ask to see the genuine 1st Gen... Tadayoshi signature... and I need to know who MR. BIG is? Who is to get shown this information first? I had to find out EVERYONE's CODE before being able to say what I've just said. No speculation. Just logic. Nothing fluffy. Just fact. No wind-up. (You may wish to sell your blades very quickly). -Research by Karl Peter Smith 20th Oct, 2015.

Sorry for not getting back sooner... and apologies to Roger for not understanding his use of 'Musashi Daijo'... in the 'context' that he used it. I'm just a very literal person. I only 'read-between-the-lines' when reading 'Tadayoshi School' blades :-) Okey-dokey... you are ALL going to love what I've discovered now... and it's taken 2 years of looking at everything the internet has to offer (up to 2015). 1586-1630 with a few 1601 blades... which is an amazingly great time... as it's not really a fluffy-area to get too bogged down with progeny as they were not born yet - yippee (crossed them off). Show me a signature and I can tell you who wrote it. I've cracked the 'Jo/Myoju' CODE... which once known is actually quite obvious. I almost just want to sit on my hands with this knowledge... as it's actually FUN to know something that others don't. Roger (aka Omi)... the Tadayoshi sword you are selling is signed by MUNENAGA (1st Gen Tadayoshi's Cousin) and a really great Horimono carver. And this is not speculation... I just really don't know who to tell this information to 1st. To errr.... sweeten the inquiring 'Sherlock Holmes' minds out there... I WILL mention another TADAKUNI secret I've found... and he seems to have been very clever indeed at signing his blades... If anyone wishes a eureka feeling... I'll send you a little gift... 2-characters with tracing-paper (that one can lift) ... and what you'll see is HIRONORI (Tadakuni's early name) on the paper... and when you drop the tracing paper over the top of it (which has only a few lines on it... it becomes da-da-DAH > HIZEN! Which is on every blade he made!!! Omg..... the cat is out the bag. PS... I did notice another book-error (Not yours Roger... sit back dude, stop sweating) ...well this book does not contain the HIRO character that HIRO-NORI used... so it would not have been found - unless you kinda (blows on nails) lift a few rocks.

To Omi-Daijo ...post #36 You're looking at the wrong Hiroshige... and when I identified him as the ELDEST I presumed you knew that Hiroshige had other brothers... and I simplified it by saying the 'eldest brother'... you knew that Hiroshige was one of many brothers right??? The one you reference is NOT the Eldest. Don't worry.. it took me ages to see that the one everyone raves about is actually the 2nd brother... and some books classify the 2nd brother as Hiroshige 1 and Hiroshige 2 is actually the older brother > the elder brother. And not a lot of people know that. No way on Earth was i saying Hiroshige was any progeny of Tadayoshi. Or I would have said. I'm very literal like that.

To Omi-Daijo ...post #33 above You show 2 pictures... This 1st is a Tadayoshi and I quote you here "The famous diamond at the top of the Hiro Kanji on a Tadayoshi (probably dai-mei due scruffy signature and Musashi Daijo mei, but....???....) NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon papers and atobori (unfortunately) dragon horimono ..." Well...Your pic does not show any of the 4 characters needed for the 'Musashi Daijo' title... your blade contains the simpler '(no)ju' which simply means 'living at', 'inhabitant of'. I'm sure you posted the wrong pic there... as if it's true --- and that's what the NBTHK papers say > RIP-THEM-UP-NOW. The 2nd Tadakuni picture you post you comment about. I'm saying nothing. but OMG... you've made my day with the first comment. FOUR! Duck.

... before I say anymore on the sword and certificate Lee has kindly posted as reference. As I wish to be VERY precise... Just so that I know what I'm looking at... and about to talk about. Nidai Tadahiro (...as no-one was allowed to sign Tadayoshi for the 1st Gen. whilst he was alive) ... hence Tadahiro being on the blade. +DAI-MEI – student smith signing his teacher's name. (So the cert is saying it definitely not a 1st Gen Tadayoshi signature) as it was signed on his behalf. So this is basically one sword from the factory that a student has signed right? Clarify that exactly for me. *It looks like an eldest son Hiroshige blade to me ... who does an up and down chisel mark above the FUJI of FUJIWARA and single chisel marks (one being a moon) either side of the hanging 'J'... where-as the Omi alway has 4 a bit like this '=J='. When comparing 2 suspects... look at swords signed after one has died. It rules out this 'speculation'.

To Alex A... It has nothing to do with the mei in question. Kinda digressed :-) Sorry. ...................................................................................................................................................................... I was just initially defending isidro305's blade and identifying it as another of 1st Gen Tadayoshi Students. There's a huge 15-20 year void... when the progeny like Masanaga(Masahiro) were growing up... ...and OTHER 'older' students were signing for Tadayoshi when his school signed as such. ......................................................................................................................................................................... I was defending a blade that was being dismissed with ref. material that I knew was not right, that's all. As for pictures... me publishing pics over someone else's work would be distasteful... as it's bad enough having to point out amendments... ......................................................................................................................................................................... Digressing again: There's a Kunihiro blade 1583 with Horimono and a BUSHU character (early synonym for the province Musashi) which reappears almost exactly on 1624 'Musashi Daijo Fujiwara' swords... making it by-the-hand of someone who must still-be-alive and be the one who worked on the sword in question... making Umetada Myoju the possible signer of the Kunihiro 'BUSHU' & the early 'Musashi Daijo' titled blades. Tadayoshi did go to Myoju to receive the title from Myoju. That is official. The legendary wandering Sword-Priest Kunihiro died 1614... aged 84 and he was at Umetada Myoju's forge 1596 (same time as 1st Gen Tad)... Think of him as the Gandolf of the forge. A very over-looked presence indeed. Luckily his demise in 1614 rules him out of being a major factor in later blades but the early Tadayoshi swords... hey... his influence... look at the swords and answer... Who's your daddy?

I'm not speculating... just saying what's on the blade(s). The same 'diamond' chisel mark <> (think of a diamond on a playing card) also appears on blades that are similar-looking/look-like the work of the Omi- (real 1st Gen son) For example: It appears above Tadakuni's 1638 'Harim Daijo' title.... and looks like a massive trademark when compared to normal chisel strokes. As Tadakuni got his title in 1638 when all the other 'greater' suspects are dead (roughly all died around at tightly-dated 1632) it must rule out their hand. ...but the Omi- was still alive :-) Later H'Omi :-)

The evidence is on the swords themselves. In THEIR actual writing (characters chiseled) . It seem that 100%... whist 1st Gen. Tadayoshi was still alive... others had to write Tadahiro. Roger shows a Masahiro dai-mei for Tadahiro that does NOT show what I call his Hizen 'lJ' ('l' for lion, 'J' for jolly) which is Masahiro's given writing. plus whilst Masahiro's elders were alive [the Great master Myoju, Adopted father Tadayoshi and real father Yoshinobu]... ...Masahiro's KUNI was a clear 3/2 chisel display in a box... and not one of the three examples shown in the book. Exclusive to the... now later...Omi-Daijo-Tadayoshi (real son of 1st Gen. Tadayoshi)... is the 'diamond' chisel mark above the HIRO-line... (in TADA-HIRO) which looks a bit like this <> and is REAL obvious once it is pointed out. ...and the KUNI [1-box-1/comma crossed moon] belongs to this same progeny who also wrote 'J-' in his HIZEN. I couldn't link the images but... once you know the above information it is real easy to identify the difference. I'm researching a sword signed MUSASHI DAI-JO FUJIWARA (with special water-mark) ... and I'm looking for who signed the JO part of DAI-JO the way it is signed on this actual sword... my closest suspect at the moment is Hiroshige but the actual influences of Umetada Mjoju/Shigeyoshi or even Jo Munetsugu (who taught Tadayoshi before Myoju) are so close I just need to see that exact chisel mark. Anomalies I have seen on this journey solve a few answers to Q's on here. And I can go 'Oh-h-H!' I know who that is! The above research is mine... maybe I should write a book? Funny thing is... until recent... i was sure it was more likely to be Yoshinobu than Masahiro, until i saw a sword dated after Yoshinobu's death... so I went hunting for who was ALIVE... and the Omi's 'diamond' within the HIZEN was highlighted and mentioned by a certain 'Inamura'. He did state that THESE swords are all currently still attributed to 1st Gen Tadayoshi... but appear to be signed by the Omi- (who I'm calling Omi- for clarity). A certain area of interest are 1st Gen. swords with HORIMONO's that are signed by the actual carvers. Woo-hoo... it's hotting up.

Hi isidro305,MY research should give you some HOPE... Your "Hizen" character has what I call the HIROSADA [ij]... ....as in "i" for ink (with the sharp point of the chisel pointing upwards and "j" for jolly (minus the usual attached chisel mark as such> "J-". So who is HIROSADA? As he was obviously in the Tadayoshi school signing swords... a STUDENT! Look out for... HIZEN NO KUNI JU FUJIWARA HIROSADA SHERLOCK solves it again. (Smug moment.) ................................................................................ FOOTNOTE: OH and by-the-way... for all Tadayoshi fans.... MASAHIRO (Yoshinobu's son) did not sign the dai-mei's sold at Christies etc... it was the OMI-DAIJO-TADAHIRO (his 1st real son) which makes Roger Robertshaw's Book that everyone is referring to > wrong, sorry. I've kicked a Bees nest there. I shall explain at a later date. Bye!

OK ! I may have actually solved this... my prime suspect is Hiroshige (who was ALSO a student of the great 1st Gen Tadayoshi) and was hiimself actually from Musashi... which makes a lot of difference as to how the Province is written and how it is written on the sword. I have noticed that swordmakers from Musashi sign their home province Musashi differently from those who are NOT from Musashi. My research spanned the later sword cutting tests of the 17th century where most 'if not all' of the swords of the 1st Gen Tadayoshi progeny were tested by the testers for the Nabeshima Daimyo (Sword testers such as 'Yamano Kanjiro Hiseteru'.) One GREAT piece of evidence that I found on Colin's sword... is... the very secretive 'Mizukage' (the Mark Of Water) ... which is attributed to1st Gen Tadayoshi. [and his Master - Umetada Myoju - was still alive too - also in his final year... so don't out rule his hand either.] Here is a link to a Hiroshige sword with an uncannily similar writing to Colin's... (chisel direction/size/overall feel) http://new.uniquejapan.com/a-hiroshige-katana/ And here is a link to the sword cutting tester... which includes the Water-Mark location. http://www.samuraisword.com/nihontodisplay/CUTTING_TEST/gold_inlay/Tadayoshi/ Food for thought x

Adding to what is said above.... The two relative suspects... that could have signed your sword for Tadahiro (1st Gen Tadayoshi) are... Jo Munetsugu who was (Priest & Swordmaker) and worked up until 1632/3 and looked after 1st Gen Tadayoshi at the age of 13 (when he became an orphan)...and Tadakuni 1604-1691 (1st Gen Tadayoshi's cousin) BOTH signed the "WARA" part of "FUJI-WARA" with two horizontal lines in the box. Call me SHERLOCK!

Here is a sword with 2.3cm Sorri and high waves hamon... that is signed 'Musashi Daijo Fujiwara' The signed & dated, Tadahiro August 1631 has exactly the same handwriting that is on Colin's sword. Clive says "As for the sword under discussion, the mei is certainly not that of Musashi Daijo" Funnily enough that is what is written on Colin's sword... plus "Fujiwara" of course. :-) [Nod to Clive] My theory is: It was an honour to sign swords. And I have found the same hand has signed multiple generations of swords at the Tadayoshi School Tadayoshi's/Tadahiro and on Masahiro's etc THE SUSPECTS ARE: 1st Gen Tadayoshi himself... when not making swords had the honour of signing them Yoshinobu (Master of the Tadayoshi School) the one married to Tadayoshi's daughter. ...also known as the ghost swordmaker for Tadayoshi... who also signed swords...like a BRAND... ...low waved/low sorri were attributed/signed to/as Tadayoshi) ...high wave/low-high sorri were attributed/signed to/as/ his son) ...add to this that Yoshinobu also signed swords for himself for a while. The same hand is signing multiple swords at the Tadayoshi school. Who-ever signed the 1631 blade also signed Colin's sword. The mei is by someone at the Tadayoshi School ... the person who signs their Brand (so to speak) someone with power/honour to sign... ...in a similar fashion that 'Nagahisa' is to 'sharpness tests' for the Nabeshima Daimyo family. Even though 1st Gen Tadayoshi became ill... ...here is a comment that proves that it is genuinely possible for him to have signed the blade... In the last 20 years of his life "he did not lift a hammer very often but retained the rights to perform Yaki ire (tempering and annealing) & Mei kiri (engraving or chiseling the makers name on the blade) until just before his death in 1982" - The wife of the famous WW2 Swordsmith Ishido Teruhide.