Adrian

I understand that we have different opinions on this subject. The question here is simple and fair: do you want to give it a try and do a proper market research for the project that I'm proposing? Sure, but do we agree that this should be the second option, to be pursued if the attempt to get offset print fails? I have absolutelly nothing against investigating all the possible options to get the best quality and price possible for offset printing. Any member who knows a good printing company and wants to step in is welcomed (at least by me). Once we figure this out we will also know which country the books would ship from. My intention is to hire a shipping company for the distribution. This would add to the printing cost, of course, as already mentioned. I don't think that any person who currently has a job could do this kind of task as volunteer and within a reasonable timeframe. P.S. Yesterday and today I spoke with people I know from 4 printing companies in 3 countries (Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria). I guess it's better to stop now and see where this goes. (if anywhere)

I don't think you're following. Did you read the part about digital print (low quality) vs offset print (high quality)? The thing that seems to puzzle many is that, in this case, the better quality ends up being cheaper when it comes to price per copy. What you guys need to understand is that the TOTAL COST of the project is determinant for the quality, not the price per copy. 100$x100 copies = 10.000$ for offset print 200$x25 copies = 5000$ for digital print For 10.000$ we get offset print, for 5000$ (or even lower) we get digital print. I'm not sure how could I make this more clear.

Thierry, actually Markus was very clear about the fact that he supports either version. It's all in this topic, at this point I doubt that there are any questions left. The exact amount of Markus' royalties will be determined after he chooses the technical details of this limited edition. As in paper quality, binding type and so on. Once we have 100 people interested I will mail him some paper samples and ask him to decide which one to use it. We will also discuss the price option for all the other technical parameters. We will then have to find a balance between leaving enough room for Markus' royalties (they need to be substantial IMO) and getting the best possible paper/binding/cover and so on. This will be his decision as he is the author. I hope all is clear now. The main quality issue is that any of the current available options (lulu.com or bd.de) are digital print (which is lower quality then offset). The goal here is to get at least 100 pre-orders and therefore be able to get offset print (much higher print quality).

Thanks a lot guys. Some encouragement is very welcomed TBH I think that everything was explained very clearly trough this topic. At this point it should be easy to understand what is the objective, of course if one bothers to actually read the topic. Of course, if Brian makes a sticky, I will write there a small synopsis, to help those who didn't noticed this thread make an informed decision.

Tbh at this point I'm about to give up. If the effort I'm about to put (without any personal benefit whatsoever) into this project results in obvious trolling and personal attacks, then perhaps I should use my brains and time for another cause.

Definitely 100$ per set (offset print) including royalties but of course excluding packing, shipping and so on. Consider the fact that 100$x100copies= 10.000$ Packing and shipping are an extra regardless of the method chosen for printing the books. There are enough companies that do just that (handling and packing) for reasonable prices, this shouldn't be a problem. And postal charges depend on destination. At this point I would recommend putting up a sticky and definitely a weekend isn't going to cut it (more like a month). It's not like we're in some sort of hurry, better give everyone the chance to order, even those who don't check out the forum every day. I think it would be better not to run it as a poll, because it would confuse those who didn't followed the topic and don't know the differences between offset and digital (digital would sound as the better quality option, particularly given the higher price). Let's just ask about interest in pre-order @100$ plus packing and shipping and if we don't get anywhere near 100 copies we just run another topic for 25 copies @180$. Again, there's no rush, let's try to get it right . If I may sugest the title of the sticky, something like "Pre-orders for "Index of Japanese Swordsmiths" by Markus Sesko- quality offset print - 900 A4 pages in 2 volumes at 100$" should do it . Also a global sticky would help a lot.

Jussi, actually a much better quality can be achieved at 100$, but only if there are at least 100 pre-orders. When purchasing individually from bod/lulu or when printing 25 copies @180$ each, we get digital print = lower quality and higher price/copy. Making a pre-order of 100 copies can get us offset print = much better quality and lower price/copy. Of course, if less then 100 copies can be pre-ordered we only have the digital print option.

Hoanh, I said an agreement, not a contract (maybe my english fails me a bit here). An agreement would just guarantee the fact that they would print a given number of copies (within the specifications) for a certain price. This will be the base on which to start collecting the money. Of course we will have to come up with the money within a certain timeframe, otherwise the agreement would be voided.

Glad to hear this . At this point, best thing to do would be to have a sticky (maybe visible from all sections) with a very sugestive title (something like "Pre orders for "Index of Japanese Swordsmiths" by Markus Sesko- quality offset print - 900 A4 pages in 2 volumes at 100$") Then, if we have at least 100 members expressing their comitment, we could a) sign an agreement with a printing company and b) start collecting the money (this would definitely be on Brian)

Markus, I totally understand your concern about this being fair to those who already bought your book. However with a price of 180$/set I definitelly agree with you that it would take some kind of magic to find 100 buyers. What I was willing to try was the following: 1. To get at least 100 pre-orders from the members, at a low price (under $100/copy). 2. To make sure that you got all the money. 3. To place the order with a printing company that would have previously agreed to do offset print for such a low copy count. If the price is too high and the pre-order numbers stay low, we cannot get offset printing and we would only have a somehow cheaper version of the bode/lulu versions. Tbh I would only involve myself as a buyer in such project, as it is completelly different from what I suggested initially. But again, as already said, I completelly understand your concern and I respect the fact that you want to be fair to the previous buyers.

It's the other way around. Offset is still much better then digital. This page explains some of the differences between the two methods http://www.pinscreative.com/articles/di ... offset.htm This being said, the better product can also be much cheaper, if we can pass a certain copy count.

$30 won't cut it for such a large book, considering the cost of good quality paper. But as I said yesterday, I'm quite confident that 40euros/copy (not counting the royalties, packing and so on) is possible, even for lower copy count.

Brian, there's simply no way to get offset printing at 25-35 copies. Even 100 is really pushing it. As Hoanh said, perhaps(after Markus gives his OK of course) it's time to run a poll (1 month will do) and see how many people would commit for either option. Again, digital print looks nothing like offset print. You can sugar coat it a bit, so to speak, but... I thought it was very obvious that I'm not looking to make any proffit. Of course all expenses will have to be covered, but they will be explained in full with proper documents. On the other hand, I hope you will have nothing against the possibility that some of the book dealers present on this board purchase a number of copies. This can greatly help achieve a higher number of copies.

Barry, at this point there are two options being discussed: 1. 25 copies digital print @ about 200$ per 2 volumes set 2. 100 or more copies offset print @ less the 100$ per 2 volumes set TBH the difference between the 25 copies option and the current offers on lulu and bod is very slim. Sure it would be a bit cheaper but it will still be digital print, with the inherent disadvantage of lower print quality. The second option would be not only vastly superior in terms of print quality (offset) but will also come at 1/3 the price of the current options on lulu or bod. The only catch here is that we need a much higher number of copies to be pre-ordered. (4x) This is why a bit of market research would be useful.

Don't get me wrong, the Museum of Asian Art is definitely worth a visit. But it's far from being at par with the Pergamon Museum, unless of course you don't give a rat's ass about the Western civilisation

Jam, there are a lot of historic treasures to be seen in Berlin. Don't go hunting Japanese stuff and miss the Pergamon Altar, the Ishtar gate, the famous Nefertiti sculpture and so on. I'm just giving some well known examples here, but the collections of the museums locate on the Museum Island in Berlin are really first grade and definitely worth a lot of attention. Also well worth a visit are the Prussian palaces in Potsdam (Sanssouci and so on). I've been to Berlin 4 times (for a total of some 40 days) and every time I found something new to see. How long will be your trip there?

See for yourself: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13154&st=0&sk=t&sd=a (check out the attachments in Markus' post) As for the rest, considering the fact that I helped publish quite a few big sized painting albums, I'd say I'm quite aware of the problems which appear when publishing such large books. But thanks for the help offer tho.

Brian, this board has 2913 members, do you really think that 100 of them wouldn't be interested to buy this book if the price was low enough and the quality was good? Keep in mind that the sales figures mentioned by Markus are for 260 euros/set (the price on bod.de ) as he just added them on lulu (210 euros/set paperback). Don't you want to give it a try and see how many would be interested? You should consider that, as mentioned before, offset printing offers much better quality then digital.

As Markus pointed out it cannot be sold at print cost as that doesn't include author's money, the NMB donation and the various other expenses associated with handling and individually packing 100 two volume sets weighting some 5+lbs each. (since this will be a pre-ordered edition I think this can be done at the printing company but they will charge for it, of course). However, since neither Markus nor Brian strike me as greedy , I'm sure the total can be kept at a very attractive level. Anyway, what we will need to do first is the market research, probably in the form of a sticky topic. Once the number of copies can be figured out I would be able to negotiate with a few printing companies and come up with a few variants of total cost (depending on the paper quality choices and so on). From that point it should be pretty straightforward. Keep in mind that we need a relatively large number of members to be interested in order to get offset print (as opposed to digital) so it's of paramount importance to keep the price as low as possible.

John, it is available in hard cover and the cost of both volumes is 270$ = 210 euros at today's rate. And that's on Lulu, because on Bod.de it's 260 euros for both volumes. What I'm talking about is a small, pre-ordered edition sold to the NMB members at a much lower price.

These are the important parts . I'm sure something can be worked out for everyone's benefit, if Brian wants to play ball, so to speak. Yup, sorry, NMB of course. I had a lot of very different things to do today and there was probably some fried circuit on one synapse :lol: The book I'm talking about here is Markus' "Index of Japanese Swordsmiths", both volumes. For the rest, please be assured that I'm not talking about newspaper grade paper and soft covers either. But based on my previous experiences with the printing business, the total cost of printing a nice edition shouldn't pass the 40 euros/copy (both volumes) mark. Hardcover and good quality paper included. Tbh I expect much less if everything is done properly. Let me just say that I know a company that will do offset printing (good quality) starting from 500 copies. And I have the distinct feeling that this figure can be worked down.

Adam, actually what I'm talking about is something different. Printing on demand is used with books that have very little demand (and it usually means a high price per copy). This is what lulu.com does. What I'm talking about is getting pre-orders for a number of copies (probably 100 would be a number that would make sense) and then finding a publisher with a good price/copy ratio for such a small number of copies. For a nihonto book, a partnership with a community like NMH makes such approach possible. Usually a number like 100 copies was way too small just a few years ago, but in the current economy there are publishers who will offer relatively good deals even for such low figures.

And if we don't go for cloth bound, on high quality gloss paper there are numerous publishers where one can print many more copies for pretty much the same total price Of course this would require a small market research that I presume NMB would probably be happy to host. Something like "would you be interested to pre-pay for "The Index of Japanese Swordsmiths" if printed in 1. features A for price X 2. features B for price Y and so on. Where "features" stands for the technical characteristics of the edition. When someone comes up with an idea like this one, I think it's better if everyone contributes in a positive manner (particularly if having printing experience). My 2 p, of course.

Alex, there's really no need to post negative comments if you don't really know the editing business. A pre-ordered edition is very easy to deal with, the only catch is to have enough copies ordered so the the price per copy can be kept at a reasonable level. This is where printing in countries where labor is still cheap can make the difference. Also Markus is well known on this board so a project like this shouldn't have credibility issues.

Markus, do you have some sort of exclusivity contract with bod.de or lulu.com? I was thinking about doing some research about printing (cheaper - somewhere in the Eastern Europe) some sort of NMH limited edition. It would be a pre-order type edition, of course. Let me know what you think about it.