Alex A

Ted, true, Shinsa papers are there to back up what one should already know, but I suppose there are new folk coming into the hobby who simply rely on them, these are the folk most likely to get taken for a ride. I personally have never checked if a paper is legitimate of not, I go off the work, but that does not mean the paper is legit. To me its simply a piece of paper with an opinion, nothing to back it up, but feel there should be. I sometimes watch tv shows were someone has signed guitar or something, although the signature is accurate, the authentication certificate is a forge, they have quick ways to check the legitimacy, we should too, iimagine it could be a drawn out affair for those not in the know. Over this last year ive seen one or two dubious papers, they are out there, although luckily few and far between. Darcy, every sword as a type of finger print (so to speak), number of mekugi-ana, length, colour, lumps and bumps, file marks, mei, shape, condition. Admittedly, it would have to be a quality photo, but all this with measurements of nagasa, sori etc, then I would assume it would be a rather large hurdle for fraudsters to get over and would put the vast majority of them off. I suppose they could add a photo of a particular part of the hamon for good measure or maybe employ someone like Aoi do the full works with pics Its not like there is an epidemic as mentioned, but in my eyes this is the way forward for these organisations, I would go with whomever offered it. Add a fee maybe for this service, employ a few more office staff to cover the work. These organisations have set the standards, I think it would be good for everyone if they moved forwards and arrived at 2016, handing out these papers is taking on a responsibility, like it or not. As for liability, how about a clause?, I certainly would not hold them responsible, they would be doing all they could after all Anyways, I expect it will never happen, but would be nice if it did.

One last thought on this subject. Would it not make sense for the these organisations to have an accessible database online?. (if there already is one, new to me) For example, if I was selling a sword with Tokebetsu Hozen, I could simply tell the potential buyer its number 23456 on the website, you will see a brief description and clear photo of the nakago. Makes everything that bit more formal and straightforward for the seller and there will be more reassurance for any buyer, its 2016 after all. Just a case of someone uploading the files, bit of filing I don't think its too much to ask. We don't need their opinions but try selling a potential big name for good money without one (so we do) Just a thought.

I have to say, seeing all these wonderful tsuba makes me want to start collecting tsuba (again), please stop, funds only go so far No, keep it up Ian, really like that tsuba, would like start with something like that

John, plenty of useful information there, thanks!. Your right, I suppose we have to look at each blade individually. Went through Aoi,s site myself, comes in handy Il be taking a longer look into this, Uda etc, see what crops up. Cheers.

Thanks Gents for your time and detailed replies, much appreciated So, way back in the Muromachi period, Yakidashi was less prevalent (cheers John) This is a similar example to what ive been looking at, http://www.sanmei.com/contents/media/N49617_T3545_PUP_E.html Hope the owner don't mind, just the only way I can add a pic of what I'm referring to. A few ive seen have been Uda, some katana with the hamon travelling a bit further down the nakago than the example shown, but beginning to taper off slightly. This is where the confusion lies regarding Machi-Okuri. With regards to were the hamon ends, they may resemble machi-okuri when infact they are unaltered.

Difficult to say Ken, but all swordsmiths/samurai had preferences for various reasons, and I'm assuming that like everything else in this hobby, there are exceptions to the rule.

Hi Darcy, i see. Interesting point and good to know, bit of a grey area. Just a wondering if some blades could appear machi-okuri, but in reality are unaltered, just thinking out loud, as usual

Hi Ken, just looking for any particular swords school that may have had hamon that start a bit further down the nakago, not all the way down, a lower start point. I'm just wondering that if there are examples like this, then who did it and why?. Could some sword smiths have done this for a reason, in their eyes to prevent a weakness in that area of the blade. Sometimes we see bo-hi running the length of Ubu nakago for various reasons too.

Cheers for the offer KPS, I expect you will be inundated

Not even KPS

Hi Mark, the only consistent Ebay sellers I know are the ones I buy my socks from Its a case of knowing what your buying and being very very careful indeed.

Yes Brian, but your dealing with a code cracker, team Bletchley

Finally!, someone else noticed.

Been doing a bit of reading/head scratching. When looking to see if a sword is Machi-Okuri, the 2 obvious I look for are.... A) Two mekugi-ana close together (but not always the case) & B hamon running into nakago. Ive noticed quite a few swords lately, listed as Ubu, but with an hamon that runs into Nakago, As far as B goes, does anyone know any schools were this was typical with Ubu swords?, during early to mid Muromachi.... Cheers.

Pulling the trigger, funny

Not the end of the world, could have been a lot worse than $300. If your interested in these swords you need to read, a good start http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samurai-Sword-Handbook-John-Yumoto/dp/4805311347

Hi Paul, hopefully folk will realize that i was not suggesting there is a false paper epidemic, just encouraging folk to be careful, especially when talking big buck swords. It seems a little strange to me that some folk may take a piece of paper as gospel and jump in with a an expensive purchase without first checking things out. Over recent years ive noticed one or two swords for sale with dubious attributions, not from any dealer here by the way.

Yes, it must be mentioned that this thread as gone off on a tangent. However, when high value relies so much on the validity of written opinions, what are we supposed to do?, this will always be the case. It is wise to question every aspect of this hobby, so one does not get ones ass burnt.

Not that I ever could afford a very expensive sword, but if I could, yes, I would want verification from whichever organisation issued the papers. As for how many fake Tokubetsu Hozen papers are out there, God knows, but when someone can turn a $5000 sword into a $10,000 sword, I wouldn't be surprised at more than a few. Diligence is a necessity in this game, goes hand in hand with every aspect of this hobby. As mentioned, Tsuruta San is well respected.

Pete, need to know what a "Whi" is Rough guess, but are "western" & "Idiot" two of the words

Hi John, yes, more prevalent with NBTHK papers. I'm not sure if they keep records or not with regards to failed swords, good question, but I would doubt it.

Hi John, the only way to be sure is to check the papers with the organisations that issued them. If someone who specializes in counterfeiting is asked to counterfeit Shinsa papers, I doubt you would be able to tell the difference.

Cant see it being too difficult to create something reasonably convincing, even a water mark. A case of buying the sword and not the papers, this old chestnut phrase.

A nice example Jean, ive bumped into a few good Bizen examples, both dated to Eisho one with Bo-hi and the other Futasuji-hi, and both also Machi-Okuri with two mekugi ana Machi-Okuri I find interesting on these swords, a little piece of history linked to a previous owner. Maybe someone who preferred a longer grip in battle during the Sengoku-Jidai, maybe down to a touch of tsuka envy a little later on into the Edo period

Hi John, ye, looks just what were talking about. 60.3cm Nagasa according to this converter ive just discovered, aint the internet great http://www.kampaibudokai.org/Script.htm I was looking at another recently, nakago inscription dated to Eisho.