Alex A

Hi Ken, just looking for any particular swords school that may have had hamon that start a bit further down the nakago, not all the way down, a lower start point. I'm just wondering that if there are examples like this, then who did it and why?. Could some sword smiths have done this for a reason, in their eyes to prevent a weakness in that area of the blade. Sometimes we see bo-hi running the length of Ubu nakago for various reasons too.

Cheers for the offer KPS, I expect you will be inundated

Not even KPS

Hi Mark, the only consistent Ebay sellers I know are the ones I buy my socks from Its a case of knowing what your buying and being very very careful indeed.

Yes Brian, but your dealing with a code cracker, team Bletchley

Finally!, someone else noticed.

Been doing a bit of reading/head scratching. When looking to see if a sword is Machi-Okuri, the 2 obvious I look for are.... A) Two mekugi-ana close together (but not always the case) & B hamon running into nakago. Ive noticed quite a few swords lately, listed as Ubu, but with an hamon that runs into Nakago, As far as B goes, does anyone know any schools were this was typical with Ubu swords?, during early to mid Muromachi.... Cheers.

Pulling the trigger, funny

Not the end of the world, could have been a lot worse than $300. If your interested in these swords you need to read, a good start http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samurai-Sword-Handbook-John-Yumoto/dp/4805311347

Hi Paul, hopefully folk will realize that i was not suggesting there is a false paper epidemic, just encouraging folk to be careful, especially when talking big buck swords. It seems a little strange to me that some folk may take a piece of paper as gospel and jump in with a an expensive purchase without first checking things out. Over recent years ive noticed one or two swords for sale with dubious attributions, not from any dealer here by the way.

Yes, it must be mentioned that this thread as gone off on a tangent. However, when high value relies so much on the validity of written opinions, what are we supposed to do?, this will always be the case. It is wise to question every aspect of this hobby, so one does not get ones ass burnt.

Not that I ever could afford a very expensive sword, but if I could, yes, I would want verification from whichever organisation issued the papers. As for how many fake Tokubetsu Hozen papers are out there, God knows, but when someone can turn a $5000 sword into a $10,000 sword, I wouldn't be surprised at more than a few. Diligence is a necessity in this game, goes hand in hand with every aspect of this hobby. As mentioned, Tsuruta San is well respected.

Pete, need to know what a "Whi" is Rough guess, but are "western" & "Idiot" two of the words

Hi John, yes, more prevalent with NBTHK papers. I'm not sure if they keep records or not with regards to failed swords, good question, but I would doubt it.

Hi John, the only way to be sure is to check the papers with the organisations that issued them. If someone who specializes in counterfeiting is asked to counterfeit Shinsa papers, I doubt you would be able to tell the difference.

Cant see it being too difficult to create something reasonably convincing, even a water mark. A case of buying the sword and not the papers, this old chestnut phrase.

A nice example Jean, ive bumped into a few good Bizen examples, both dated to Eisho one with Bo-hi and the other Futasuji-hi, and both also Machi-Okuri with two mekugi ana Machi-Okuri I find interesting on these swords, a little piece of history linked to a previous owner. Maybe someone who preferred a longer grip in battle during the Sengoku-Jidai, maybe down to a touch of tsuka envy a little later on into the Edo period

Hi John, ye, looks just what were talking about. 60.3cm Nagasa according to this converter ive just discovered, aint the internet great http://www.kampaibudokai.org/Script.htm I was looking at another recently, nakago inscription dated to Eisho.

Hi Jussi, I agree that it doesn't seem very long for two handed use, but would you agree that the extra length on the tsuka may come in handy?. Imagine blocking a powerful blow using one hand, but then think how much stronger your block would be with two hands, I can see why Machi-Okuri was a good idea, the blade still as the same reach after all.

Darcy, I once owned a Nanbokucho Hira-zukuri "Wakizashi", and it never felt right when I referred to it as a "Wakizashi", I think Uchigatana would suit better. I suppose folk using them and referring to them as Wakizashi in the late Muromachi/Edo periods as kind of made the term stick. Jean, so the really was a doublewakizashi Daisho!!, il remember about length, cheers

Thanks Gents, fun getting ones head around the terminology Darcy, appreciate the detailed write up, plenty of useful information in there to take in. Fair to say that some Samurai would have had to make do with solely owning a Katate-uchigatana. As mentioned, Ive seen a few of these swords, late Muromachi/ Machi-Okuri, were an owner has swapped for a larger tsuka and sacrificed Nagasa. Quite often you will see them listed as "Wakizashi" because they are under 60cm, which to me is an incorrect term, it should be Machi-Okuri Katate-uchigatana. If a samurai at that time paired one up with a Wakizashi to make a Daisho, would he refer to his Daisho as a double Wakizashi Daisho I suppose you could say the same about early Tachi being cut down and labelled as Katana. If we know what something is, ie "O-suriage tachi", weird to me that often you see them labelled as Katana. Jussi, ive been after that book for a long time, just keep getting side tracked, its top of the list, cheers

Hello Geraint, thanks for the reply. I wasn't very clear with my questions, the result of posting a thread after a few sunday beers. Anyway.heres a link I was looking at.http://www.yamakawadojo.com/the%20japanese%20sword%20historical%20changes%20in%20shape.pdf As for Ubu tachi, take an early Muromachi Tachi for example (no 6 on the link), around 72cm Nagasa. Being Ubu and around Katana length already, I'm wondering that if it were worn with a wakizashi, would the owner have just worn it like a Katana?. As for Uchigatana, your right, short person/short sword. I'm sure someone told me a good wile ago that Uchigatana were favoured by a specific sword school or castle guard for indoor combat (something a long them lines ). Ive seen one or two for sale recently, all in good Edo Koshirae and all Machi-Okuri for two handed use, good swords, not Kazu-uchimono, as a lot were. It just got me wondering, there must of been a great number knocking about at that time. Possibly a case of me being pedantic again, thinking too much maybe Cheers

In Shinto times. I was wondering. Anyone know of any examples were a Samurai solely carried a Katate-Uchi (Uchigatana)?, lets say Machi-Okuri for two handed use, just short of Katana length nagasa. Would a wakizashi still be necessary? Also wondering if Ubu Koto Tachi during Shinto times were typically worn like Katana? Looking for any info linked to title, cheers.

Jeez, my one good eyesight! Now then, if that's the case, I would likely be happy with the sword, now that the gaping holes are no more.

The "battle scar" in the Hamon makes most hagire I have seen pale into insignificance, but its funny that because it may be considered a "cool battle scar", it makes it some what more acceptable than hagire , Does someone want to have a go at how the 2 gaping "chunks missing" in the mune got there.?