Alex A

Hate to state the obvious but is sword making not too diverse to say one size fits all, with regards the way various steels are used, mixed or whatever ?, just a thought that occurred. Read a few varying tales on the internet a short while ago with regards the outer steel and now feel you cant put everything into handy boxes, as is the case quite often in this hobby. Be good to hear what yours and Jacques pal says about carbon and hada definition, my main interest in this offshoot Nicolas, again apologies. Not a bad side-line though as this talk is fundamental to the hobby,. Cheers.

Looks like everyones looking for evidence Just an humble hada student wondering why some folk disagree with what has been stated elsewhere and trying to get my head around why folk are saying what they are saying, without anything to back up their statements. As said, this not a speciality of mine, obviously. Just curious. PS, Mark. It states “composed of TWO KINDS of middle carbon steel” Lets not split hairs. Also, Nicolas, sorry!,

Thats what ive been thinking…evidence

I was talking about the The Samurai Handbook, sorry. Usually get this for less than a £10

Hi Thomas, yes i get all that. The issue now is folk going way off track and into space with regards hada. My last comment was just a thought, thinking if folk cant work out how differing carbon during construction effects hada (even though stated numerous times) then what hope is there in ever trying to work out the visible steel effect of Kamakura blades to that of other blades, with regards construction/materials. It should have stopped in my opinion at Rays post about the smith Shibata Ka, as NO ONE here has the knowledge to answer that question, unless your at that guys level as a SMITH. As said, i will just stick with what is written about hada, good enough for me, this is heading for an egotistical mess. sigh. Ps, Nice one Jacques & Jean speaking to someone in “the know”.

How many times have we seen it in this thread with regards quotes about differences in carbon content=hada visible (From expert smiths that make swords) Jacques shows quotes from the craft of the Japanese sword plus videos Videos from expert smiths saying differences in carbon content = contrast. Wikipedia Starts off from 2 different materials , just because its hammered and folded into1 dont mean it was made from 1 Il stick with available info, cheers Will look in, hopefully move on as this has gone sideways again lol EXPLAIN WHY KAMAKURA IS BEST, YEH RIGHT, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

Yes, totally agree hada does not require dissimilar alloys, i get that. Also, i understand now about how carbon gets levelled out during the process, so to speak. Though, traditional Japanese blades do combine 2 materials for the outer skin and that makes for greater contrast. I suppose you could ask yourself. If a smith was to make 2 swords, one with 2 and the other with just the 1 steel type in the skin of the sword , would they look the same after polish ?, doubt it. Now someone tell me why Kamakura blades were more pretty

Yes, but they are folded, end result.................... hada

2 Might be refined and ready to go again "The high carbon steel (tamahagane), and the remelted pig iron (cast iron or nabe-gane),[11] are combined to form the outer skin" Otherwise, as Jacques pointed out, no contrast in hada.

Im not talking about refining the materials, im referring to the steel ready to make the blade. Had folk saying the outer skin of the blade is just one type of steel whilst someone else said its 2 What is it ?

Always hate to quote wiki for some reason, but this is how i have always thought Japanese swords were constructed. Somewhere in this thread some differing opinions have me a little lost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing And again " the different layers of steel are made visible during the polishing because of one or both of two reasons: 1) the layers have a variation in carbon content".......... And a new one for me "2) they have variation in the content of slag inclusions". Forging[edit] Forge scenes, print from a book from the Edo period (1603–1867), Museum of Ethnography of Neuchâtel. Blacksmith scene, print from an Edo period book, Museum of Ethnography of Neuchâtel. The steel bloom, or kera, that is produced in the tatara contains steel that varies greatly in carbon content, ranging from wrought iron to pig iron. Three types of steel are chosen for the blade; a very low carbon steel called hocho-tetsu is used for the core of the blade (shingane). The high carbon steel (tamahagane), and the remelted pig iron (cast iron or nabe-gane),[11] are combined to form the outer skin of the blade (kawagane).[12][13][14] Only about 1/3 of the kera produces steel that is suitable for sword production.[15]

Aye Mark, i get what your saying. He does mention a “variety of techniques to create subtle changes” but eludes to give us the details. Unknown territory for me, but interesting trying to understand.

Andrew, you done the right thing asking in the first place, wish i had. You dont need to go crazy with books if your just looking to buy a sword to satisfy your curiosity, Seths first book will do and also plenty on the internet. To be honest, dont feel right just throwing links at you, i wont do it again with newbies. Thought just helping out someone that wants a "samurai sword" but your not that person. Also, yes, much better to look at blades in hand and if its Grey, he is a top notch guy to deal with. He will admit that the blade photography on his site is not the best for us guys that buy online, but they dont need to be, as he does the shows. Best.

You see lots of swords made with a more refined steel/equal steel. Folk often describe them as looking bland or boring. The guy in the vid i linked described features in older blades that you lose once you fold and work the steel many times. Part of the reason you wont see such features in a tight Shinshinto Ko-itame, some folk think thats boring too.

Interesting video's Part1 plus Part2 At 1.55 "Billets that have slightly different carbon content will form layers that will contrast when polished. Plus a variety of forging techniques that can be employed to create subtle changes"

It is also wide at 3.25, with little curve. Looks ok, has hozen This is why i say spend some time reading a book, its difficult shopping when your still trying to get your head around stuff. No rush, always going to to be swords for sale. Better picking your own and knowing what you buy .

Hi Andrew, just ideas. At your budget, may have to make a few compromises. Maybe an idea to read an introductory book, gain a bit of knowledge and get your head around the terminology. Then narrow the field as to what you want exactly. Books is the usual advice before buying Cheers.

Not bad at all that one Victor, at least the fittings dont look repro like the one i found (apart from tsuba) Pity its not in fresh polish, would look nice, perhaps ask them. Saying that though, sometimes swords in old polish look ok in hand. We doing our best here lol Already had one down vote, seems trying help someone out these days upsets some folks, i dont know

UFO blade

Sure is Kanbun, Folk talk about Kanbun sugata a lot but to be honest it feels like i hardly see them. Let us know what you come up with and why, Cheers

Ps, places like this you need to keep an eye on. Im assuming you just want a "REAL" Samurai sword, For your budget and KATANA, how about something like this. Fittings, well, you cant have it all at that price, tsuka wrap could be changed. Not papered by looks of it, but if its such a big deal you could ask them https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_fr_tachi&katana_A020220.html

If you stick with the hobby Paz you might find that your views change as time goes by. Old swords, those tired with narrow lifeless hamon soon become boring. Has to be some balance, Wont buy an unsigned blade these days, dont like ?,s, well, maybe at rock bottom price. Horses for courses.

Hi Andrew, you confirm my thoughts Be patient, something will turn up eventually.

I do like the weapon aspect too, Jussi, doing my best not to start talking about reliable Sengoku clunkers like Dotanuki. Dam, i said it. Now backing out haha

There would be only one way to truly get to the point, all else is purely speculation and off on a tangent talk. That is , speak directly to someone that made a blade to match and ask him. It has been done, again, back to the likes of Rays post. Anyone know a modern smith with a take on it ? If not, then little to add, for me anyways.