Alex A

As just one of a bunch that went to the Leeds Meeting. No sales, Talks by Paul, Michael and Ian B, also shown around the Japanese arms and armour by Ian B (who's knowledge on the subject knows no bounds) Table of 20 swords to hold and view. Brilliant day, didn't buy anything but a cup of tea.

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Wont bore anyone much more on this subject, something i needed to look into as its niggled for a while. Had some time today so been looking through Kantei books, actually quite interesting looking at different oshigata with regards the hamon at hamachi. Trying to get my head around it for once and looking for any points of view from others Final thoughts, don't automatically assume a blade has been shortened when you see the hamon run into the nakago, sometimes it can run surprisingly far. You see it in Uda. You see it in Bizen, also in the late Edo with regards Yokoyama school, especially when there is Suguha Yakidashi. (varies) Added some images. 1) Bizen Sukesada (Tensho) 2) Ishido Koretsugu 3) Ishido Korekazu (wild finish there, reminds me of the Yokoyama above) 4) Echizen Yasatsugu (quite popular on his blades, the ones i looked at) 5) Echigo Kunitomo Thanks to those that chipped in on what is a lacklustre subject, haha

We see many perfectly good longer swords cut down to wakizashi, owned one myself and often wondered about it. Not got a time machine but one can justifiably speculate that it received damage at the nakago end. Think i can recall the sword swingers on here stating the area around the hamachi/habaki takes a great amount of pressure on a blow against an object, this comes from flex on the blade meeting the force pushing down on the held tsuka/nakago. My assumption is that it not uncommon for swords to receive hagire at that point.

Actually have found it. It was part of a private discussion i had with Darcy (god bless him) , had to go way back. He said you may see it as some smiths wanted to avoid a place on the nakago where a brake can begin, a fulcrum point. He mentioned smiths even being wary where they chisel mei, heard that one elsewhere too. Also, Hi running the full length of the blade and nakago, possibly meant to prevent that too.

Cant remember where i read about blade strength in that area with regards hamon running into the nakago. Read somewhere, that the reason you see hamon running into the nakago is to prevent a weakness where swords may break. Certain smiths/schools where you may find it. Something to do with the hard edge on impact, flex, and where the hamon joins the nakago. They knew the weak spots, they only had to look at broken swords after a battle. Looked, cant find it, hopefully someone might remember.

Hi Colin, hamachi is there before quenching, pic from a vid

Think with this smith the hamon strays into the nakago on some blades, sometimes less and sometimes more. This one dont stray far but whoever drew the oshigata picked up on it

Glad someone's chimes in, thought this would have been an interesting subject. Saying that though, i cant think of any subject that has caused more disagreements in the entire time I've been here. Thought lets gets to the bottom of it, or try. As said, didn't spend a great deal of time, focused on looking for similar examples of nakago and where the hamon ends., not so much the blade. Actually. i thought they were 2 good examples of very similar nakago Nakago-jiri the same, unaltered One mekugi-ana (the distance from the ana to the machi looks about right for an ubu blade) Both have carved Mon in the same place., as in they meet the shiny part of the blade where the habaki sits. Let me know your thoughts Jacques, maybe i missed something. if you think this is a bad example i can search for more when i have time.

Dear Jacques You have a point on that one. I certainly wont try and assist anyone like this again Not worth the hassle or the unnecessary insults that go with it Actually, people that come here for info get it FREE, so they shouldbe greatful of anything. Over and out.

Hi Don, you would need to get the false signature professionally removed to attain pass papers. Best thing do is speak with a polisher and get a real "in hand" evaluation, he will tell you if it is worth it or not. Polishing blades is not cheap!

Dear Jacques, You don't need to travel to Japan to get your head around Bizen, seen enough, owned enough, and seen enough online to have an opinion. I dont give a flying feck what you think about me, or to be honest what anyone else thinks about me. I give an opinion, other people give an opinion and that's it, there is no reward, just see it as trying to help folk out You are so weak minded that you feel the need to pick at people and challenge opinions rather than just comment. Think you get an high from this but its becoming boring. You often try and be clever putting other folk down and saying they have Dunning Kruger disorder, but to be honest the only person on here that i think has that condition is you, who the giant %%% do you think you are?. Only a muppet that puts the rest down could have such a condition, no one else does that. You think your clever, put personally, i think your thick as feck. You have a one tracked mind that puts everything into suitable boxes that you can get your head around and cant think outside the box, you are a one tracked mind that can only spew up what is written in a book. Personally, think your full of ****

I n fact Don, can we have a full clear pic of the nakago (handle) of the sword?, cheers

On closer inspection Jean, think you have a point to consider. These are Eisho Bizen swords, for comparison. Always say look at the sword before the ana though, as sometimes they look obviously drilled and other times not. The bottom link, even looking at those you may think at least one is drilled. https://new.uniquejapan.com/a-bizen-1514-sukesada-wakizashi/ https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bishu-osafune-katsumitsu-saku/

Typical, hence why leave your swords away when folk visit.

1510-1540 would include Eisho period onwards, that is precisely the era you find Bizen swords with ana like this. Saying that though, not yet convinced it is Bizen. There is something about the hada and hamon that isn't quite there for that era, but i may be wrong. Might be the state of polish. Hamon looks too neat. Its a books out kantei job, Leaning that way though.

Don, maybe you can describe what you see, easier in hand https://markussesko.com/2015/05/13/kantei-2-jigane-jihada-2/ Think im seeing some mokume in there?

You guys expecting to see Asayugi ?, my eyesight not good, im struggling Its times like these you need Aoi art style pics

No, David, just state an observation And have Jacques give me some new-fangled idea on how tsuka are automatically interchangeable, like a size 9 shoe

David, i was explaining Bizen similarities, i did not say it WAS Bizen Only so much can be known from the DISTANT images

Hmm Jacques, does that not look Bizen ?

Jacques, looked at more machi-okuri waks (not being pedantic but around the one hand sword length which can be pretty long but lets just say waks) over the years than i care to remember and funnily enough they have mostly been Bizen and all had 2 ana about an inch or so apart. Where have you got this "other tsuka" notion from?, its intriguing . So Tsuka readily fit other swords?, hmm This is what i think. Fighting/blocking a blade with one hand on the blade was a complete nightmare, imagine it, big naginata coming down on you, your tired and your nakago only has room for one hand. Holy****, what can we do about such an issue ?, we can slightly shorten the blade to enable us o get 2 hands on the grip, thats what we will do!!, that way, when we are knackered from fighting at least we can stop blows. It may be a Katana, but still applying what ive seen, right or wrong, dont matter. The nakago-jiri in the photo looked Bizen, rounded. Why does everything need to be a competition with you?, why cant you just make a point? Great scott!!!, your that sure about everything, sometimes i think you have created a god dam time travelling device with your love for physics

Agree with Franco Blade is slightly shortened too, the 2 ana (peg holes) close to one another always a giveaway. Usually a "Bizen" thing, well, see it mainly with Bizen Nakago-Jiri looks Bizen too. Cheers.

Hi Colin, Just looked at the Tadakuni and when i zoom in, the right pic of nakago shows yasurime higher up, perhaps worn the other side. Spent 5 mins on the internet just pulling up various old sales pages and that's the result. The point is (whilst trying think whilst misses watching strictly come dancing lol) wish folk would not be so closed minded when it comes to working out hamon with regards being ubu or suriage. Loads of variation out there. No getting away from the fact that there is hamon on the nakago. Heard of polishers repairing missing hamon with their tricks but dont see any point to it in that particular part of the blade. When they do that though, its obvious. Remember Tsuruta San once telling me that hamon can be improved but you cant put a real hamon where there is none. Your right about images, but you see that in-hand too. Anyone could sit here all day and pull up varying hamon endings for a particular smith and that is my point.

One more, from a different smith, Hizen Tadakuni !st. See one as an abrupt end the other runs on.