Alex A

Maybe looking more closely at the blade hada and hamon may add some progress, need better pics though.

If you see an "old style punched" mekugi ana, then you have to take it into consideration along with everything else available that a sword is telling you. Its the last thing you look at and you cant rely on it as some punched ana are that round and perfect (especially in images) they look drilled. In really old blades with obvious punched ana then they are great for backing up what the sword is already telling you. Good to see! You may come across a Shinto or Shinshinto blade with an obvious punched ana, who knows, perhaps the smith was out of drills lol and just thought sod it, il punch it. etc. You may come across older blades with one drilled ana, perhaps an old punched ana was widened in later times.

Hi Mark, Think your brother and friends may be correct on age. The carvings are Horimono The blade has seen some polishes. It shows signs of wear, appears there is a remnent carving under the thick Bo-hi, hard to tell from images. The thinner carving looks to be quite worn Possibly masame hada mixed in within the blade, maybe, which may help you with a school. Need really good high res pics to see for sure. The blade is also worn at the hamachi. Horimono like this was common back then with schools such as Bizen, not that im saying it is Bizen as the blade requires a bit more research. Cheers

Bit baffled now as to what i saw in the Nanbokucho Nobukuni blades. Looked exactly the same as the image Jacques circled in red. In Aoi images it was obvious, a dark patch of steel with no grain at all, just flat. In the angled images they do, again stood out.

Never really give it much thought but pretty sure ive seen Shingane in late Nanbokucho Nobukuni blades.

If you have not already read this John, worth a read as mentions quite a few combinations you may come across. https://markussesko.com/2013/09/14/the-secret-world-of-mekugi-ana/ You know what, i think a sword would crack at the hamachi area before a well fitting mekugi peg broke. There is a lot of force when hitting a target in that particular part of the blade. Mentioned it in another thread recently regarding hamon. Just look at the many wakizashi that are out there made from shortened katana. I get what they are saying in the article regarding koshirae. From a thin tsuba and low fuchi to thick tsuba and higher fuchi in Edo times. The thing is though, its trying to fit everything everything into boxes. It dont work like that, there are too many variables. Anyways, another reason you may find another ana in an Ubu nakago. Read recently, and here is one such variable. One particular Edo sword school liked the mekugi peg dead centre of the nakago, dont ask me why as it did not say. So if for instance they came across a sword they liked the look of then no doubt they would change the sword to their preference. Be other reasons but for the most part i would assume the main reason for 2 or more ana on swords that are Ubu is simply a tsuka update, whether new or cobbled together. There must have been places where you could go and look through bucket loads of tsuka and get lucky with one that fits ok, for the poor Ronin. May be of interest to us these peg holes, but back in the day another hole under the tsuka was maybe not such a big deal (for the majority), more interested in just getting the job done. Could do with someone finding a good old write up on this subject. Forgot say, how long do we think a tsuka would last?, with weathering and wear and tear, im guessing not too long. Samurai had an habit of walking about and gripping the tsuka with the thumb over the top of the kashira. Ever wondered why you see see the odd sword now and again in old koshirae with the kashira hanging on for dear life or worn.

Hi John, Sometimes you see larger drilled holes. No evidence but sometimes i think they may have been drilled through existing holes as adjustments for fit. Also, got seppa thickness and if necessary could file the habaki for miner adjustments when swapping tsuba/tsuka

One thing i learned not so long ago. Had to drill holes through 6mm steel to make some brackets and bought some cheap "steel" drill bits off Ebay. With a modern drill started drilling away and low and behold got to 3mm and they started smoking, had to buy cobalt bits. Got me thinking about ana, thought to myself, wouldn't want to be drilling them unless really needed to. Dont know anything about the old Japanese drills but would find that interesting. Anyways, as mentioned elsewhere. Scavenging on a battlefield after a battle, no doubt if you came across something better and it fit, you might put it in your pocket so to speak. Only if you were using the family heirloom sword, otherwise you would just swap swords. Whether or not you could get a smith to drill you a new ana there and then i dont know. See them being really busy turning broken katana into waks and what not. You would just drill a new hole near the existing hole. Some folk mention that a new ana is needed when a new koshirae is fitted. No doubt that happened but you could use the existing ana could you not ?, simply mark the hole and drill. Sometimes you see really large round ana, maybe an adjustment. Anyways, just some early morn thoughts.

Yes, agree. Seen it once in a Tadakuni blade. Also in an Osaka mid Edo blade with narrow kasane. Not that it was over polished, it was slim to start with. Someone may have requested a lightweight blade.

You guys might find this interesting, if not already read it. https://markussesko.com/page/17/

Not to worry Don, Shingane is very common, especially in older blades.

Agree Jean, hence why i expressed my interest with the seller, wouldn't usually go for mumei nowadays but see it as a fair deal. The shape is interesting , never owned one like this and like Seki. There is difficulties here though, for both seller and buyer. The seller is new to this site so that makes selling difficult as folk are cautious about sending hard earned money to folk they don't know. If all was well, would have suggested a middle man, someone well known. Even if the seller sold with someone like Ray on commission im pretty sure he would have received his asking price after the sale. Im still waiting for better images. The sword is advertised here but im no member so cant view. https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/next/69278

Peter, as mentioned, very tough without having the full original sword with nakago, as that gives clues to the school. We need really good clear shots of hamon and hada to even come up with maybes Very difficult

Wow, big bear! Maybe this is why the fur not carved all over, may have had other stuff to move on to!

Hello, Its a tough one, probably the end of a katana or wak, judging by the nakago You dont see Shinogi zukuri shaped tanto often. If i was to buy one it would have to be signed and nakago well finished, that way you know its a legit tanto An example https://sword-auction.com/en/product/14059/as21710-短刀：横山伊勢守祐平/

Don, Your sword is interesting, the fact that it is one of those real oddballs that you come across occasionally. You could spend all day on this looking through books and not come up with anything substantial. You should send it to Shinsa in the US and at least that way you will have opinions of experts who see it in hand. That is if you really want to know about who made it (opinion) At first glance from your original images i immediately thought Bizen and i kind of still lean that way but sit on the fence so to speak. From a distance it just looked Bizen, the hamon, sugata and nakago. The nakago of which i still thing is machi-okuri. File marks are indistinct which does not help, in some images there appears to be remnant yasurime which match that of Bizen but i cant call it from images. As Kirill pointed out, the sugata is that of an early blade but the work don't match. The hada appears dense (in some images) and the hamon seems to have little activity for Sue-Bizen. From then on i started thinking something like Takada as they were known to have blades resemble Bizen but also have a dense hada. Its not that straight forward though as there are parts of this sword that dont point to Takada. The Nakago does, but they were known for stout blades where as yours seems slender, like an old tachi. Other differences also. The nakago ana are obviously drilled. Dont normally look too much into this but no way of getting away from it. Kind of got to thinking maybe some kind of special order blade whereas a Samurai wants a particular request. When blades don't quite fit this can be an explanation. You do see oddball swords with papers sometimes that do make you wonder. Swords with odd sugata that dont match the age etc. From then on looked at Shin Shinto Gassan which i know nothing about. From a brief read i noticed that some did make swords in the style of old tachi and worked in various ways regarding hamon and hada, though your sword appears much older without distinct yasurime etc etc etc. Not really got anywhere but just some thoughts. Cheers

Christian, you could very well put a longer Katana tsuka on a wakizashi short nakago Whether or not a samurai would want to depend on it in battle, i very much doubt. Without altering the nakago. There has to be a balance with nakago length/tsuka You only need to look at koshirae made for waks that are machi-okuri. Not talking about the sword in this thread, just making a suggestion. Ps, actually, looking at the nakago above. First thought, appears shortish for a blade of that length.

As mentioned already. Good to meet other collectors and if for any reason one of them mentions they may be selling something then i certainly wont be offended. With all the hassles of buying online and importing, makes perfect sense. Grow up Jimmy, you sound like one of those kids that go home with the ball when things are not going their way

You do remind me of a point that i often think about and there is very little info, how much influence someone had, when ordering a sword/swords with specific requirements. I know some sword schools favoured certain traits in their swords. Anyways, as we move away from Muromachi to Momoyama more peaceful times, the single handed Uchigatana gets left behind.

Not too sure, judging by the Uchiko powder ball in his other hand

Can only give tips as to what to look for, dont want get involved in any online kantei disputes. You have nakago-jiri You can see file marks, http://meiboku.info/guide/form/yasurime/index.htm Also, what appears to be a drilled ana. Not a lot to go off, but every little helps.

Just out of curiosity, had a spare hour this morn looking for points of view with regards specifically WHY blades were shortened in this manner. Lots of info on how it was done with diagrams and a write ups but little as to why. Looking for points of view. The logical reason is simply so a longer tsuka could be fitted to a sword to enable TWO hands on the blade. agree ? Bare in mind that just because a blade has TWO ana, this does not automatically make the blade Machi-okuri.!, there are other reasons why you may see two ana. Some info on the particular swords where machi-okuri was common. KATATE UCHI (single hand swords) "Late Muromachi Period By the late Muromachi period, fighting methods had changed from cavalry to mass infantry style warfare. Shorter blades, known as uchigatana, with a cutting edge of around 63.6 cm in length that were intended for one-handed use became popular. As opposed to tachi that were worn suspended from the belt, uchigatana were worn thrust through the sash with the cutting edge uppermost. Following the Onin war, conflicts broke out in many places prompting the mass-production of blades (inferior in quality to regular Japanese blades). However, specially ordered blades of excellent quality (chumon-uchi) were also produced at this time. The provinces of Bizen (Okayama prefecture) and Mino (Gifu prefecture) became major places of production. Many blades produced in this period have with strong saki-zori, with either a chu-kissaki or an extended chu-kissaki." Now some info from Usagiya, with an image showing Machi Okuri. http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/suriage.html "Machi-okuri (= Machi moved) The tang keeps original, but the machi's are moved upward. It is done to shorten the blade length a little. So the TANG LENGTH IS EXTENDED. Such a small shortening is not called Suriage. It is just a "Machi-okuri". The reverse surface of the tang is ground with file sometimes to get a proper taper of thickness." Now an example of a blade of a "katate uchi blade". Bizen Eisho. This example shows a typical blade of that era which is quite long at at 59cm but the nakago has been altered to allow for a longer grip. The overall length/reach of the sword has not changed, just sacrificed some blade length (an important key point). https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-bishu-osafune-katsumitsu-saku/ Look forward to reading any thoughts on this subject.

Dave, from day 1 of "Jimmy" appearing . pretty sure we have all seen him before here., rinse wash repeat.

Again, no sales, we were not allowed to take our own items Jimmy, for some reason or another, you coming across as being somewhat upset about something. So your in the UK, This is not the best place to make your point, write to the Token society. Also, some very educational ZOOM meetings, ever tried selling something at a ZOOM meeting. Stands up/Butts in "anyone want to buy this?"

Swords are out there in the UK, its if you can be bothered looking, as so much already "in polish" online overseas. When visiting arms fairs there is always a Japanese sword that catches the eye. Say to the dealer "where did you get that from?", they always reply "someone walked in with it earlier". Saw an advert on gunstar "Japanese swords wanted" Talking about arms fairs, you do come across swords. Last time i went there was a Koto katana in gunto fittings, in old polish, the guy wanted £1200. Year before that, another Koto katana, really dark steel (Northern something), gunto fittings, £900 Few years ago, a wakizashi in gunto fittings, £600. Chunky blade and was tempted. Fresh polish but polish could have been better as it was a commercial job. Turned out to be Yokoyama (as i found out later). Always see waks in koshirae, sometimes really nice koshirae. Seen those at £650, Shinshinto tanto in last fittings, always. A few years ago there was a sword with really nice fittings . Omori wave type Fuchi/Kashira A few years before that a Koto Katana, signed Bizen. That was nice as it had really old koshirae in sleepy condition, matching Nanako fittings. £800 A super long Shinshinto katana, also with its last really nice koshirae. Very long tsuka, the kashira was hanging on for dear life, but still great to see. £1800 All these stick in the mind, as knew they were good deals. As always, the really interesting items turn up when you are looking for something else.