Alex A

Should these have a nengo Jacques, do you think ? https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/product/antique-Japanese-sword-katana-signed-by-osafune-kiyomitsu-nbthk-kicho-certificate/ https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-bizen-osafune-norimitsu/ https://www.samuraimuseum.jp/shop/product/antique-Japanese-sword-katana-signed-by-bishu-osafune-sukesadanbthk-hozon-certificate/

Lots and lots of swords out there made by obscure/low level smiths where there is very little references. (for us) Not just Koto, Edo too. References that only the likes of a shinsa panel may have a hold of. No doubt they come across swords now and again where even they scratch their heads.

John, as Johnny pointed out, maybe one for Shinsa to sort this. Just having a look through Takada swords, surprising variation. See some smiths at a certain time producing running itame with masame in the shinogi-ji whilst others a Ko-mokume etc etc etc.. As said earlier, known for copying other schools. The hada did not shout Shinshinto to me, but who knows. Its a tough one, without seeing it in hand and using the available images. Cheers.

Sometimes, a horse can be so high it puts the riders head in the clouds. Another line.. "Sorry, but when I see that someone declaring a nakago machi-okuri on a simple photo (without having had the sword in hand) it is the proof that he doesn't know much." Yet Jacques does not have the sword in hand either and come to the conclusion it is less than 150 years old and gimei. Nothing of certainty can be said about this sword yet, as not enough good photos and we do not have it in hand. Jeez, first time i saw the picture of the hada i thought Sue Mino Looked at the hamon and thought Bizen.

Not wanting to jump in but feel this point has to be made for the sake of any newbies being sucked in by Jacques “everything in boxes” way of thinkng. Seen some swords with NBTHK, dated to the late Muromachi where the mei looked nothing like other examples, you would just look and assume gi-mei. NBTHK have more resources and Knowledge than Jacques, and are obviously a lot more open minded. The mei is the last thing you look at! This has gone way of mark, would advise owner to study hamon and hada closer, look for a school. Anyways, leave you to it

Jacques, i was making a point, i stated gift tanto. Done my best to be polite and friendly with you, but your intolerable You really are making this an awkward place to be, and I'm the troll No wonder some REAL educated GENTS don't post so much lately, i guess they are all tired and bored of your constant desire to be confrontational Anyways, I'm out of this thread too, before i say something that gets me kicked out.

Jacques, again, not spending all afternoon on the internet to please you. From memory, have a look at Eds sold page or the other, cant remember off the top of my head but the name Moses comes to memory. Dealers are not as pedantic as you on such matters as these type of swords are not so desirable and sell for low prices, so they dont want to spend money and time on them getting them papered. Spoke to Tsuruta San the other day, he confirmed what i just said. An example, see any papers for this gift tanto ?, even made by the guy that started Yokoyama Bizen. https://www.aoijapan.com/tantoyokoyama-ise-kami-sukehira/

Pretty sure i saw one on a US sold page not so long ago, 45cm Another same size. 44.3cm http://nihonto.us/BOYS DAY SWORD CHI 17.htm

On a bit of a side note, often found the biggest "headache" swords come from those of the late Edo. Was only looking at a sword the other day where the hamon absolutely screamed Yokoyama chogi with yakidashi but the hada was itame/masame, not the usual ko-itame. It can be a mystery minefield. Even the seller cant say who made it. Funnily enough, that looked to be a boys day sword, or birth/gift sword. small dimensions.

Jimmy, i have an issue with the hada Its not refined enough for examples i have. Though maybe with a more thorough search, who knows.

Takada worked in so many styles that it is hard to keep a track of. Sure ive seen a book somewhere that is purely based on their swords fooling folk as Bizen, may of been for sale at Touken Komachi if i remember correctly, mentioned it in an old Takada sold page

Yes, agree, and that has been my thought for a long time in this thread As said, i was just considering other possibilities. Its the dimensions and hamachi throwing in a curve ball

As said earlier, when i see a slender blade it always gives me concerns This blade is only approx 2.5cm width at the hamachi with an healthy lot left on at the hamachi, Its a possibility this is a late Edo tourist piece. Ive seen them, where smiths want to save material and just put together something that a tourist will go home with. In fact, i bought one at an arms fair, puzzled me for a while. Not certain and don't want to start going on about hamachi again, but you have to try and see the full picture. With all the details addeds, makes a difference. That had a nakago that looked like it had been messed with too, bit of an odd shape. Something about the hamon too which reminds me of late Edo Bizen type. Come across boys days/chigosahi swords that look similar, they were made by late Edo Bizen schools. Mumei, with a ji- mei added.. Slender nakago too. Though, just a thought and not sure yet.

Jimmy, as funny as it is arguing sometimes. Often seen those that treat folk with disrespect fall, karma My philosophy(if spelt right) , treat folk with respect and you shall receive respect. In my experience of 50 years, ive seen Karma put more things right than i can care to imagine be nice or meet karma

Still without dimensions Looks really slender and always kind of careful around slender blades with opinions Actually, beginning to think boys day sword is even a possibility at 45cm and with whats available Difficult from whats available

Not easy from the images but looks like some Masame in the shinogi-ji (in image above near habaki) Yo, with the hamon. You would need to confirm. Just looking for clues.

Also John, you need to help folk to help you. Folk wont search through other threads, need images including boshi

Agree, lets get back to the sword and stop talking about holes and hamachi.

Now affectionately, the riddler

What's even more crazy is that you have actually stated you have seen them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Re-read your posts................Kamakura

Jacques, I find your ignorance astounding, really do. Do you not think out of the millions of blades produced that some made it all the way to the present day without being polished to death Some may have just seen a present day polish. Occasionally, real oddballs turn up that make you think, wow. As said, not spending all day looking for these oddballs to please you. Your very narrow minded.

Jacques, this what you do. You sit on a very tall horse coming out with all kinds of riddles, like the Riddler off Batman and when you don't get your way you become insulting, like a spoilt brat You share stuff from books, i share stuff i see There is a difference, your lacking in knowing what is out there.

Jacques, it is early Edo. https://www.samuraishokai.jp/sword/22616.html As said, got better things do, you take a look about and you may be surprised

See above, not spending all day searching just to please you

5 mins on internet Early Edo