Alex A

Folk disagree then that's fair enough, im happy just to pick up on a things that i wouldn't normally look into and gain a bit more understanding of the full picture. Cheers.

Actually, ive said sorry a few times but in reality if one cant get their head around this then this then there is no hope to understand Japanese swords, If your serious about Japanese swords and find this boring then i would go back and re-read what has been talked about. Again, this is fundamental to the hobby and there is little chance of remotely understanding any sword construction , let alone what makes Kamakura swords interesting. Reading what Mark, Jean and Jacques have said has been very interesting . As said, this is not what i have neen learning about, been mainly Kantei type stuff. So excuse my basic thoughts with regards this particular part of the hobby, im no blacksmith, just a guy trying to get his head around it The interesting part for me, the plasticine analogy, struck a nerve and i will tell you why. Very similar, years ago working as a printer i mixed more different coloured inks then i care to remember to create other colours, reds and yellows to create orange and so on. How is this relevant, you may ask. Well, when i watch the guy in the vid fold the steel it takes me back to that time stood folding 2 blocks of ink together. I can tell you this for sure, 12 folds isn't enough to turn 2 colours into 1 colour. I would be there ages folding many times to see the final 1 colour and even then you would find the odd streak. When i see a smith in a video talking about steels of different carbon content being stacked, heated, hammered and folded, it takes me back. I watch him hammer and fold. I don't see steel, i see colours being mixed. Its been stated that steels of different carbon go in to the block, sometimes close and sometimes not so close. When i watch a smith in the video fold the steel, lets say 2 steels of varying carbon. I imagine 2 different colours., Even if those 2 steels are close in carbon content then even after 12 folds im still assuming a difference within that block. We have HADA! The only way to produce a block of pure equal carbon steel would be to really refine. Im talking melt it down as in at steelworks molten metal, no ? Muji hada is the result of much folding/refining, O-itame not so much Its been said varying carbon levels makes the hada more distinct by a few sources. Lets remember that folding steel is not always perfect, also. Look at how many delamination's we see in blades, impurities and so on, flaws etc As for this carbon migration, i dont know anything about it but wonder how much of an effect there might be ?. An image of a reasonably tight hada below, to look at, is that just the result of heat, hammer and folding and not material differences, i find it hard to believe. As mentioned, there is a molecular level, i aint going there haha. Think maybe that is the only way to settle it. Gone on a bit. Great thread, cheers.

I don't see how Hada cannot be related to carbon content when the steel made to create the Hada pattern is made from carbon steel/steels. Think maybe this deserved its own thread. Sorry, again.

Going around in circles here Back to Kamakura

Well, if the steel gets more evenly distributed when manipulated (as in plasticine analogy) how does that not distribute the carbon within the steel too?

Just as an example. If you took two swords and did a carbon analysis on a dozen or so points on each blade and compared 1) Mass produced koto itame 2) Shinshinto refined Muji On average, id bet my home 2 would show to have more consistent carbon Lots of swords and variations

Hi Jean It states in the video the wafers are of differing carbon content. Also, if carbon is always so evenly distributed, then why (as Jacques quoted the craft of the Japanese sword) does it state in that book ”The VARYING carbon content also produces etc etc” Using the plasticine analogy , for perfect distribution i would expect the 2 colours to merge into 1 colour, as in extremely tight refined hada)

In this video and out of curiosity. States "stacks differing wafers of varying carbon content". Now i suppose they could be close carbon content or miles apart. Are you guys saying (in simple terms) that the carbon content after hammering and folding will be TOTALLY EVEN throughout the block ? 19.46 in this video. Also, worth mentioning again that you will see some smiths do things differently, obviously a different hada is the result. What im getting at, and the plasticine clay is a good analogy. Folk talk about “ The Japanese sword” like there was only ever one lol. I wonder if the carbon content in a O-itame is as evenly distributed as that in a super fine Muji?

Well done Jan. How would you describe the crystal formations?, Nioi, with a touch of Nie maybe ? Hamon looks to go quite near to the ridge line, perhaps a clue. Also, my eyes not great with images but do you see any masame hada in the Shinogi-ji ?

Good write-up However, we are still left with the question on how they made superior blades

Hate to state the obvious but is sword making not too diverse to say one size fits all, with regards the way various steels are used, mixed or whatever ?, just a thought that occurred. Read a few varying tales on the internet a short while ago with regards the outer steel and now feel you cant put everything into handy boxes, as is the case quite often in this hobby. Be good to hear what yours and Jacques pal says about carbon and hada definition, my main interest in this offshoot Nicolas, again apologies. Not a bad side-line though as this talk is fundamental to the hobby,. Cheers.

Looks like everyones looking for evidence Just an humble hada student wondering why some folk disagree with what has been stated elsewhere and trying to get my head around why folk are saying what they are saying, without anything to back up their statements. As said, this not a speciality of mine, obviously. Just curious. PS, Mark. It states “composed of TWO KINDS of middle carbon steel” Lets not split hairs. Also, Nicolas, sorry!,

Thats what ive been thinking…evidence

I was talking about the The Samurai Handbook, sorry. Usually get this for less than a £10

Hi Thomas, yes i get all that. The issue now is folk going way off track and into space with regards hada. My last comment was just a thought, thinking if folk cant work out how differing carbon during construction effects hada (even though stated numerous times) then what hope is there in ever trying to work out the visible steel effect of Kamakura blades to that of other blades, with regards construction/materials. It should have stopped in my opinion at Rays post about the smith Shibata Ka, as NO ONE here has the knowledge to answer that question, unless your at that guys level as a SMITH. As said, i will just stick with what is written about hada, good enough for me, this is heading for an egotistical mess. sigh. Ps, Nice one Jacques & Jean speaking to someone in “the know”.

How many times have we seen it in this thread with regards quotes about differences in carbon content=hada visible (From expert smiths that make swords) Jacques shows quotes from the craft of the Japanese sword plus videos Videos from expert smiths saying differences in carbon content = contrast. Wikipedia Starts off from 2 different materials , just because its hammered and folded into1 dont mean it was made from 1 Il stick with available info, cheers Will look in, hopefully move on as this has gone sideways again lol EXPLAIN WHY KAMAKURA IS BEST, YEH RIGHT, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

Yes, totally agree hada does not require dissimilar alloys, i get that. Also, i understand now about how carbon gets levelled out during the process, so to speak. Though, traditional Japanese blades do combine 2 materials for the outer skin and that makes for greater contrast. I suppose you could ask yourself. If a smith was to make 2 swords, one with 2 and the other with just the 1 steel type in the skin of the sword , would they look the same after polish ?, doubt it. Now someone tell me why Kamakura blades were more pretty

Yes, but they are folded, end result.................... hada

2 Might be refined and ready to go again "The high carbon steel (tamahagane), and the remelted pig iron (cast iron or nabe-gane),[11] are combined to form the outer skin" Otherwise, as Jacques pointed out, no contrast in hada.

Im not talking about refining the materials, im referring to the steel ready to make the blade. Had folk saying the outer skin of the blade is just one type of steel whilst someone else said its 2 What is it ?

Always hate to quote wiki for some reason, but this is how i have always thought Japanese swords were constructed. Somewhere in this thread some differing opinions have me a little lost. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_swordsmithing And again " the different layers of steel are made visible during the polishing because of one or both of two reasons: 1) the layers have a variation in carbon content".......... And a new one for me "2) they have variation in the content of slag inclusions". Forging[edit] Forge scenes, print from a book from the Edo period (1603–1867), Museum of Ethnography of Neuchâtel. Blacksmith scene, print from an Edo period book, Museum of Ethnography of Neuchâtel. The steel bloom, or kera, that is produced in the tatara contains steel that varies greatly in carbon content, ranging from wrought iron to pig iron. Three types of steel are chosen for the blade; a very low carbon steel called hocho-tetsu is used for the core of the blade (shingane). The high carbon steel (tamahagane), and the remelted pig iron (cast iron or nabe-gane),[11] are combined to form the outer skin of the blade (kawagane).[12][13][14] Only about 1/3 of the kera produces steel that is suitable for sword production.[15]

Aye Mark, i get what your saying. He does mention a “variety of techniques to create subtle changes” but eludes to give us the details. Unknown territory for me, but interesting trying to understand.

Andrew, you done the right thing asking in the first place, wish i had. You dont need to go crazy with books if your just looking to buy a sword to satisfy your curiosity, Seths first book will do and also plenty on the internet. To be honest, dont feel right just throwing links at you, i wont do it again with newbies. Thought just helping out someone that wants a "samurai sword" but your not that person. Also, yes, much better to look at blades in hand and if its Grey, he is a top notch guy to deal with. He will admit that the blade photography on his site is not the best for us guys that buy online, but they dont need to be, as he does the shows. Best.

You see lots of swords made with a more refined steel/equal steel. Folk often describe them as looking bland or boring. The guy in the vid i linked described features in older blades that you lose once you fold and work the steel many times. Part of the reason you wont see such features in a tight Shinshinto Ko-itame, some folk think thats boring too.

Interesting video's Part1 plus Part2 At 1.55 "Billets that have slightly different carbon content will form layers that will contrast when polished. Plus a variety of forging techniques that can be employed to create subtle changes"