Alex A

Also, judging by your recent reply here in another thread, you come across as an hypocrite lecturing us....... Pretty derogatory really. "As Tanobe sensei charges for his sayagaki (one Japanese polisher I know even says he'd do them on umbrellas if he was paid well), he's inclined to "embellish" reality. That said, he's fallible like any human being, and that's why a college of experts is preferable to a single opinion (In science, it's the same thing: there are books and peer-reviewed articles)."

Jacques, briefly. Firstly, Utmost respect for those guys. Secondly, When it comes to me spending my hard earned money i question EVERYTHING. There was a time when i used to think "oh, it has papers so all is good", those days have gone. Seeing what I've seen over the years, with other antiques and not just Japanese swords has made me extremely wary and cautious. Many instances where items have been messed with to increase value. Its kind of made me a bit pedantic when it comes to authenticity., hence now become more interested in items with provenance, I make sure i become "expert" enough to have my own opinion in anything I'm spending money on. As said earlier, don't like relying on other folks opinions for anything i own.

I like the info that comes with some late Edo smiths, and onwards up to the present day.

Don't think anyone was criticizing them Jacques, just trying to get our heads around what's very difficult to get our heads around. Cheers for the data Jussi, much appreciated.

Lets face it and is been said before. Its not an exact science.

Thanks for the reply, appreciated You know what, i have a signed Mino tanto. Without the mei i bet there is at least a dozen smiths that could have made it, maybe more, as the work between a lot of the Kane^^^^s was so similar. I first noticed a Kanefusa tanto that looked just like it, that got me browsing. Nothing really distinguishable, apart from the mei, obviously. That's why i say i wouldn't be too bothered with papers for an unsigned (of that type), as there are too many open doors, so to speak. Saying that though, i guess it is a lot safer to buy with papers and they are kind of nice along with the blade when it comes to selling, as you point out.

yes, Don't forget the sword is evaluated and the mei backs it up, most of the time here you will see folks go straight to the mei. Back in the day someone had an unsigned blade, lets say Tadayoshi, then got someone skilled enough to copy the mei. How would a shinsa team these days tell the difference?, impossible, Its effectively legit. so they would have to pass it. How often this happened i don't know Mentioned a while ago i had an Hizen blade with an unusually large mei, with hozen. An Hizen expert pointed it out, strange things occur. Seen Sukesada on Aoi with Hozen years ago with really questionable mei, as in you would think it was gimei, it was that bad. If the work was correct then i guess with mass produced stuff like that then Shinsa teams likely give some leeway. A signed sword was always more desirable than an unsigned sword, so expect some shenanigans. Many skilled with a chisel, especially in hard times. Hers the most famous that added gimei Kajihei (鍛冶平) | Markus Sesko Some information here " Even today, they are treated as genuine sometimes." Kuwana blades (ksky.ne.jp) As said earlier, Shinsa teams are only human. (yes Franco, only human) Quote............. Human League "we're only human born to make mistakes"

Randell, interesting, Can i ask you a couple of questions? If you like the sword and you know roughly when it was made, does it really matter to you who may have made it? Would you have bought the sword without papers ?

When you look around at other collectables, then look back towards Japanese sword collecting and papering then it strikes you as bit of an oddity I'm not aware of any other antique arms collecting where such a papering system is involved. Example. .......Antique pistols can be an utter headache and your on your own. Yes there are forums and dealers may offer a certificate but they are to be taken with a pinch of salt. They don't add any value whatsoever, just some reassurance for some buyer not in the know.. There is so much uncertainty with Japanese swords, especially mumei. I'm not big on relying on other folks opinions about what i own, as we all know its not factual. So you end up with attribution, they think so and so made it.. I bet an awful lot out there is attributed wrongly, we have all heard of contradictions. I find old mumei swords without papers, without attributions somewhat more interesting. The blades im interested in now don't need them, quite liberating. Japanese swords seems to be one hell of a unique hobby!! Anways, gone off on one again, just thinking out loud .

Aye, know those types.

Hi Paz, when i mentioned swords that don't need papers i was thinking of the swords that are obvious what they are. Your signed and dated Sue Bizen, Signed Sue Mino etc Then one could jump on to unsigned Sue Bizen etc, why bother paying someone to tell you what for the most of the time is clearly obvious or with a little effort, worked out. Other stuff like Edo ubu mumei. Say you come across a sword thats obviously Hizen with Konuka hada etc, why pay someone to tell you what can be worked out. Other mumei like Shinto Ishido etc etc etc As said earlier, some folks are happy enough with their own working out, seems like there's an obsession with getting things papered. Sometimes its just a waste of money, other times not. On occasion folks must hold one of their signed blades thinking wow, signed and made by the man himself, unaware that he had no hand in its making or signing.

You know what, sometimes when books/folks talk about mei you would think they were talking about mass produced machine stamped, like Sam Colt stamped on a pistol or something. Even with those you see oddballs where someone did something assways, human nature, worn punch etc. So when you add the human handcrafted/inscription into the equation then i guess that opens up many doors for discrepancies over a long period of time with much unknown thrown in for good measure. Someone once said to me, you would need a time machine.

When everything about the sword matches that of the smith/school but the mei is SLIGHTLY off. Don't know about you but that sets me off on a whole world of speculation as to why that may be the case. Busy forge, Dai mei etc. Must be a number of authentic swords noted as gimei. Many rational reasons why but guess they have to have boundaries. Could live with such a sword, probably wouldn't be too bothered about sending it to shinsa. Though obviously price would have to reflect lack of papers, for potential re-sale. Some folks rely on papers for every blade they own, for one reason or another.

Nothing wrong with an educated punt, good luck with that. There are folks that are happy enough owning swords without papers, confident of their own knowledge enough so they don't need another opinion. Think certainly there are swords that don't need papers It is interesting to meet different folks with differing opinions regarding papers

To me it looks a good blade but appears it wont take any more polish

Hi i was referring the images above my comment, the little oval defect appeared to be a dint, to my eyes. Bottom picture, left at first glance appears to be some difference, darkness, possibly core steel beginning to show. On old swords, acceptable in moderation. Can expect stuff like this on very old swords, part of the reason that got me more interested in Shinsakuto.

Shintetsu, core steel Japanese SWORD FLAWS (japaneseswordindex.com) Oh sorry, you mean the little marks, just look like a dint and a crack, not serious but depends how fussy you are.

All i will say is that i think i have seen more Tadayoshi gimei pass through here than any other smith name, You see some on blades that are obviously Hizen but the mei looks real bad. Others on blades that look more Sukesada. People always say "buy the blade, not the papers", but there's a time when they are needed, from what I've seen.

Think it may have been an ishido sword. Anyways, yes it happens. Possibly more on blades with more exaggerated curve when shortened, never really thought about it Not a great example below, but get the idea. The one mentioned above cut a lot more of the mei off.

You know what, do remember one on Aoi a few years ago with most of the mei running off the side. Thought it was a bit weird, but never really give it much thought since.

That's fantastic.

Could do with a pic Mei can appear cut off in various ways after shortening.

With what's available you have to assume its gimei. and price accordingly.

Good job, impressed,

To me, judging by the nakago it looks old, not Shinshinto. Ana appear old and the varying surface to the nakago appears genuine. From what ive seen of most Shinshinto trying to be Koto, they never pull it off that good. Cant really tell from those images but looks to be Mitsu Mune, so taking that in plus the hada etc id be looking to see if it fits a shortened Muromachi Shimada sword or any others. Good luck with your research and possible purchase.