Alex A

Very nice Colin. Seldom see good Samurai sculptures. Remember looking years ago and the internet was full of cheap resin sculptures. Did you find it in the UK?

If you want a cheap daisho for display then these are fine, you wont look at the blades and think wow though. As you might if you put all that money into a wak by a good smith. Horses for courses. Ps, with the daisho. Inspect images and ask about any flaws (disclosed and possible undisclosed) that may be too bad to live with.

Thanks Peter!

Aye, he brought a lot to the forum, going to miss that a lot. A real gent, always friendly.

Shocked to hear. Never really talked swords with him, just knew him as one of the guys He will be missed by many, very sad.

The Naotane gets me curious, one that would be good to see Thanks

Was looking for cannons but then started looking at Bronze stuff Get why folks like them.

Another good site, a few on here. Large one with Ivory, says exempt I don't know much about the rules, antique should be ok??, dunno "Please note: Registered as exempt under the Ivory Act 2018 REF: EKK34L2T" https://www.sellinga...ist-genryusai-seiya/

One here, all bronze, don't mention who made it. Can find some good antiques in here, for anyone interested. https://www.antiques...gers_c1880/as755a199

Agree, splitting hairs.

Michael, well aware about how some mei were preserved, quite a rarity really. Again, lets think about the majority. You don't see them too often, take a look around all the dealer sites. As for the mei and it still being an opinion. Your not seeing the wood for the trees, so to speak. First look at the blade characteristics (kantei), then the mei. Folks can reasonably attribute a blade without a mei to a school by judging the blade characteristics, the mei then backs it up. Who signed the sword is irrelevant as we will never know for sure unless we were stood there at the time, we know about Dai mei etc. We do have examples of mei to compare with but still you will see discrepancies for reasons we may never know. The FACT is they are period signed (name) with ware matching that of the rest of the nakago. More often than not we can confirm mei. Other times (as mentioned) you will see NBTHK give allowances. Its not a "one size fits all". Its not just fake mei either, folks fake cutting test inscriptions, the NBTHK will not award Hozen if they suspect a sword has a fake cutting test, even if the mei appears genuine. You look at a sword, mei, if it all adds up............ then it all adds up. By the way, there could be many folks involved in a swords creation. Take mass produced blades of the Sengoku as an example. The reason we so many Sukesada with dodgy looking mei, but still with Hozen. Deliberate forgeries of the Late Edo. An experienced collector or enthusiast will detect something that don't quite add up. That could be anything from the colour of the steel, the nakago ana and on to the condition and patina of the nakago and so on etc etc. Ps, a mei added after suriage. Well, its a mei added after suriage so would be in the wrong place and stick out like a sore thumb, you would only have to look at the sugata.

On the point of "gimei being a part of a blades history" Well, suppose it is. The problem i have and wished id made it more clear earlier in the thread and it seems to have gone unmentioned. If "HISTORY" is so "IMPORTANT" to some folks then why the hell would you buy a sword without an original mei?. Think about how much HISTORY is lost with gimei or mumei. and just becomes OPINION. Yes, for a lot of swords we can get reasonably accurate opinions but they will always be opinions. Then we have the oddballs, oddballs that even have different organisations giving different opinions. With a mei, bang, there it is. Smith/line of smiths Time they worked. Not, "attributed to whatever" Now you have some REAL HISTORY added to the sword. They signed it for Gods sake! There are reasons why folks would buy a gimei sword and i get that. Colin mentions old koshirae, well even id be tempted as it adds a lot, other than just the sword. I would love to see a gimei blade so spectacular that it prevents me buying a genuine signed blade of matching quality, as there are many out there. Ps, Well aware there are some fantastic and very old blades out there where the mei was lost to suriage (well, we don't actually know whether a sword was signed or not as its cut down lol). Im not dismissing such blades here, im purely talking blades that could or should have an original mei.

Hi Paz, Buying swords at shows i find really difficult. You never quite know what's going to turn up. You might see a signed Koto Mino tanto which is relatively straightforward to work out but then on the other hand come across an Hizen wakizashi by a well known smith which appears ok but making a call on the spot i find impossible, especially if it seems pricy. Then a case of taking pictures of the mei and going home to do your homework. Kind of annoying for the seller. It never quite works out. Back when i was first interested in swords then maybe gimei would not have been so much as an issue. Over the last few years ive become a bit of a minimalist regarding collecting. In the sense i don't want to accumulate anything of no meaning or anything outside of my collecting standards . Would end up selling eventually, so what's the point. Looking over some Japanese sites. I notice that gimei swords where the work is good and the mei in the ball park seem to sell fast. Often wondered whether these get snapped up by sellers wanting to sell them as Shoshin. If someone's knowledgeable enough to spot a diamond in the rough, even with a gimei then it depends how deep their pockets are. Personally,, too many hassles ahead for me in that respect. As i said earlier. Must have been a lot easier selling gimei to tourists at the end of the Edo period than it is today. Only ever bought one blade at a show, gimei in fact. Only bought it because it was very cheap A tourist piece http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/kuwana.html

Aye, in that situation you have to assume its gimei Even if the mei was a good match, perhaps some faker did a good job.

Id start with the blade itself, hamon, hada etc etc

No option for 15 times a day

Well, as for NBTHK being "all sacred", would you buy an expensive sword without papers ? I mentioned mei variance in my last post and don't need to read the article. Lots written on why mei can be so different and don't have the time or inclination to start digging it up. Made points about the "majority" but seems you didn't read that either. Like others here, seen so many "is this real?" threads where folk get told no, gimei. Basic kantei, blade first, too much emphasis on mei, especially FAKE mei. We are looking at this from two different angles, that's all. Anyways, made points, now better do some work lol

I'm not for a rampant removal cull of gimei mei. If anything has a chance of being genuine then im sure it should be left alone. Also sure NBTHK or whoever are well aware of this point. There's a difference between the majority and the ones we can get nit-picky about

I would suggest if NBTHK call gimei, it would have a lot more to do with what else is going on with the blade then a change of style with the mei. See allowances for mei all the time, just look at the variety of papered Sukesada as an example, individual smiths im talking about, obviously not the entire bunch Owned blades where the mei dont match the norm, papered Can only expect NBTHK or whoever to take this so far. Actually, do now feel like im going around in circles because all this is OLD News

One thing i forgot to mention so i will mention it now. Not mentioning names, but aware of dealers that have basically made a living out of selling very expensive and likely gimei swords. No mention of the possibility of fake mei anywhere to alert naïve newcomers (which i find unbelievably deceitful) The unknowing buyer reads the description, the swordsmith name, does a bit of googling and thinks they own a sword by a certain smith. You wont receive any guarantees should the sword be sent to INDEPENDENT shinsa but you will get a piece of paper saying its authentic from them. Its possible some get returned within a short time, only if the buyer does that bit of homework (as some do once they receive) Many folks have overpaid for swords Point being, gimei swords continue in this day and age to profit some and rob others. Not just with these dealers, only need look through the well known auctions etc. But hey ho, its a part of the history,

Prefer the price of that first Elephant, seems a good price for that manufacturer

As mentioned, dont have the interest in fake mei Love blades though, I see why you guys are interested though so best i let you get back on track Cheers

Jeremy Just 2 different points of view. See so much dishonesty with Antiques, i have no sympathy for fake mei Its a tough world out there and plenty of folks lost money For me, i guess that's all there is to it. Ps, mentioned a ww2 knife a while ago where someone added a date. Didnt fool me but fooled someone else. The knife sold for £900, it was worth a lot less. Point being, still unscrupulous dealers out there and still folks playing shenanigans to add value.

Cmon Mark

Jeremy As a professional organisation wanting to show some integrity, especially when it effects value. Would you want to be certifying blades that have fake mei ?, mei that are not ORIGINAL to the blade? You guys are talking like all fake mei are a work of art and of reasonable accuracy regarding school/smith, when a lot of time they are utter BS and do nothing whatsoever for the blade, as i said earlier, they are just DISHONEST. If you want a pink slip or whatever with who they think made the blade, then great, I'm all for that. This thread seems very suited to folks that own gimei, looking for a reason for some acceptance. The "everyone's a winner" mentality.