Alex A

Will just say one more thing Jacques. I have no intentions of being some grandmaster sword expert. Me or you will never get there, Stop the charade, its now boring. Come here for a laugh, talk about swords and other antiques that i wont see sat at home, that's it.

Jacques, stick to commenting on swords in hand then. That way you wont come across as an hypocrite.

Jacques, we are doing this from bad pictures, not clear pictures. What i saw i perceived as could be Tobiyaki. Kantei here is just a bit of fun, but fun when someone gives a fair example with good pictures, clearly showing the boshi etc. I think of kantei here as different from the real kantei. For gods sake, we are amateurs that have not studied 1000s of blades in hand and we are usually looking at bad to average pics. So as for books, what do you expect. Its just fun trying to find the smith and also educational. You moan about folks judging blades from pictures then attempt to get your point across using pictures If you could just listen to yourself and it sank in, you would stay away from commenting on pictures added here, but you carry on regardless being an hypocrite. I could put any blade on here made by some late edo smith that reproduced old works and you wouldn't have a clue either, and i guarantee you would have to reach for a book This whole exercise was set up to make yourself look special, it hasn't worked, as usual.

To be honest, did suspect Jacques was up to trying to prove a point and did suspect it could be one of the late Edo schools that emulate older works. This guy in fact i believe worked in three traditions. Without looking into it i kind of started to think about looking into stuff like the Naotane school but who wants to spend all day on it. One feature that stood out is that the hamachi appears tired in the bad picture which kind of gets you thinking it was not a later sword. I've always said if folks are going to do kantei pics here then to give folks a chance then it has to be a TEXTBOOK sword of the type they were known for making. Not someone that made a wide variety. Not very sporting. Also, may not be Tobiyaki in the sword but we have to go off what we can see. To me, in the pic (bottom right), appears like Tobiyaki. Jacques knew no one would get the answer In that respect, wasn't fun Jussi, just 30 minutes of my life i wont get back

Ok, without spending all day on it. Cant really work out the sori from that pic, was originally thinking Edo but with what's available as in the jigane i would be thinking sue-seki Something along the lines of a well known Mutsu no kami daido, though cant find an example with the gunome being this regular. There appears to be Tobiyaki, which gets a mention for one of his kantei points. Anyways, something along those lines

Think i need magic powers, as cant see boshi or whats going on in the Shinogi. Your the one that's always lecturing us about kantei from bad pics ?

Jacques, going around in circles again. All you need to to know (again) is that i don't spend money without research. That does not make me an "expert" as you seem to think that is what I'm saying, it means I'm sensible and wise. Even Shinsa teams need info resources, its not all off the top of the head. I'm now coming to the end of my collecting journey, experiences bad and good accumulated and now my thoughts are forged. So in that respect, my advice here might sound harsh/hardcore. Perhaps trying to help folks make better decisions that many are not interested in. Folks find their own ways. That's all I'm saying, now definitely finished with this thread.

Reuben If they cant narrow it down, then they cant narrow it down. If you want a more precise paper, then buy a signed Ishido and do some some serious research. You highlight my points

Kantei, not some kind of magic power that Jacques seems to elude to, obviously that was the point i was making. If you have studied their blades then obviously it would be easier and doable. Again, not studied Tadatsuna or the differences involved in their work and i don't have lots and lots of data regarding them. If i was buying one of their blades i would make dam sure i did!. I get the picture, must be similar work with subtle difference, like you might see in various other smiths, Hizen, whatever. Luckily for me i never have to split hairs over such issues as mine come with a mei and a nakago, like at a Shinsa which is what the thread is about. An important point i forgot to mention. This thread is a matter of perspective, its not about picking at the NBTHK et al. For me its about doing all you can to make sure what you buy is authentic and legit and NOT just relying on other opinions. Folks can make this task simple or difficult depending on the blades they choose. One can be ignorant and rely on papers, they do say ignorance is bliss. Again, horses for courses.

Ridiculous, for a "scientist", you don't half come out with some crap. Ive not studied Tadatsuna, but if one can tell the difference between two swords by looking at them in hand then its not **** rocket science!!!!!!!!!!!. Obviously, if you know what to look for then it makes it doable. These "experts" don't have super human eyes like telescopes, we are not looking at stars, they are not X Men You cant expect everyone to think like you, very narrow. Also, you like to put others down, to elevate yourself. Suspect you do this because your have issues, narcistic, insecure or whatever. You need to grow up. Anyways, as said, said all i need to say, always a pleasure Look forward to any sensible input from others though.

Think its the old putting stuff in brackets again scenario. Obviously there are swords that even baffle "experts" and end up with conflicting opinions, old and unsigned, whatever. Then there are swords that are pretty straight forward., Luckily for me, prefer the latter. Hopefully that makes what I've been saying clearer for anyone confused or those that are not confident to know what they own and rely on someone to tell them. Horses for courses. You know your at the end of saying what you want to say when you realize your going around in circles.

If we are to believe Jacques, then we have no business buying books, researching and definitely not buying antique swords. Its all so pathetic, troll detector has detected a signal.

You sure know how to over complicate things, Jacques

Also, judging by your recent reply here in another thread, you come across as an hypocrite lecturing us....... Pretty derogatory really. "As Tanobe sensei charges for his sayagaki (one Japanese polisher I know even says he'd do them on umbrellas if he was paid well), he's inclined to "embellish" reality. That said, he's fallible like any human being, and that's why a college of experts is preferable to a single opinion (In science, it's the same thing: there are books and peer-reviewed articles)."

Jacques, briefly. Firstly, Utmost respect for those guys. Secondly, When it comes to me spending my hard earned money i question EVERYTHING. There was a time when i used to think "oh, it has papers so all is good", those days have gone. Seeing what I've seen over the years, with other antiques and not just Japanese swords has made me extremely wary and cautious. Many instances where items have been messed with to increase value. Its kind of made me a bit pedantic when it comes to authenticity., hence now become more interested in items with provenance, I make sure i become "expert" enough to have my own opinion in anything I'm spending money on. As said earlier, don't like relying on other folks opinions for anything i own.

I like the info that comes with some late Edo smiths, and onwards up to the present day.

Don't think anyone was criticizing them Jacques, just trying to get our heads around what's very difficult to get our heads around. Cheers for the data Jussi, much appreciated.

Lets face it and is been said before. Its not an exact science.

Thanks for the reply, appreciated You know what, i have a signed Mino tanto. Without the mei i bet there is at least a dozen smiths that could have made it, maybe more, as the work between a lot of the Kane^^^^s was so similar. I first noticed a Kanefusa tanto that looked just like it, that got me browsing. Nothing really distinguishable, apart from the mei, obviously. That's why i say i wouldn't be too bothered with papers for an unsigned (of that type), as there are too many open doors, so to speak. Saying that though, i guess it is a lot safer to buy with papers and they are kind of nice along with the blade when it comes to selling, as you point out.

yes, Don't forget the sword is evaluated and the mei backs it up, most of the time here you will see folks go straight to the mei. Back in the day someone had an unsigned blade, lets say Tadayoshi, then got someone skilled enough to copy the mei. How would a shinsa team these days tell the difference?, impossible, Its effectively legit. so they would have to pass it. How often this happened i don't know Mentioned a while ago i had an Hizen blade with an unusually large mei, with hozen. An Hizen expert pointed it out, strange things occur. Seen Sukesada on Aoi with Hozen years ago with really questionable mei, as in you would think it was gimei, it was that bad. If the work was correct then i guess with mass produced stuff like that then Shinsa teams likely give some leeway. A signed sword was always more desirable than an unsigned sword, so expect some shenanigans. Many skilled with a chisel, especially in hard times. Hers the most famous that added gimei Kajihei (鍛冶平) | Markus Sesko Some information here " Even today, they are treated as genuine sometimes." Kuwana blades (ksky.ne.jp) As said earlier, Shinsa teams are only human. (yes Franco, only human) Quote............. Human League "we're only human born to make mistakes"

Randell, interesting, Can i ask you a couple of questions? If you like the sword and you know roughly when it was made, does it really matter to you who may have made it? Would you have bought the sword without papers ?

When you look around at other collectables, then look back towards Japanese sword collecting and papering then it strikes you as bit of an oddity I'm not aware of any other antique arms collecting where such a papering system is involved. Example. .......Antique pistols can be an utter headache and your on your own. Yes there are forums and dealers may offer a certificate but they are to be taken with a pinch of salt. They don't add any value whatsoever, just some reassurance for some buyer not in the know.. There is so much uncertainty with Japanese swords, especially mumei. I'm not big on relying on other folks opinions about what i own, as we all know its not factual. So you end up with attribution, they think so and so made it.. I bet an awful lot out there is attributed wrongly, we have all heard of contradictions. I find old mumei swords without papers, without attributions somewhat more interesting. The blades im interested in now don't need them, quite liberating. Japanese swords seems to be one hell of a unique hobby!! Anways, gone off on one again, just thinking out loud .

Aye, know those types.

Hi Paz, when i mentioned swords that don't need papers i was thinking of the swords that are obvious what they are. Your signed and dated Sue Bizen, Signed Sue Mino etc Then one could jump on to unsigned Sue Bizen etc, why bother paying someone to tell you what for the most of the time is clearly obvious or with a little effort, worked out. Other stuff like Edo ubu mumei. Say you come across a sword thats obviously Hizen with Konuka hada etc, why pay someone to tell you what can be worked out. Other mumei like Shinto Ishido etc etc etc As said earlier, some folks are happy enough with their own working out, seems like there's an obsession with getting things papered. Sometimes its just a waste of money, other times not. On occasion folks must hold one of their signed blades thinking wow, signed and made by the man himself, unaware that he had no hand in its making or signing.