Alex A

Haha, well done Ken.

Hi Ken, all I will say is do your homework, its a lot of money, check the sword and mei against other examples. Over and out.

Hello If i were you, i would do some reading. I mean well

Ye, I know a lot of head scratching goes on in there too, all fun

Im joining you and Jean in the Koto missing mei department

Perhaps I could sum up my thoughts in a different way. A fictitious example Lowry the painter works with a few sons, possibly two or three students, their work is indistinguishable, he has taught them well. He signs his name, they sign his name, all a bit confusing. Buyers want his name, Lowry likes that, he charges more! Now, back up to date, Mervin, the buyer in the future buys a Lowry with an authentication paper, stating its by Shodai Lowry (1st), he pays big bucks. BUT, and its a BIG BUT we don't know its a Lowry 1st lol, the Tardis had broke. So maybe the papers should state.........." Lowry school, possibly by Head Lowry 1st, we don't know for sure". so, how can authentication papers state that it is by Shodai Lowry 1st?

Hi Arnold, silly me, thanks for the clarification, I link the word with "authentication", should have used that in there instead maybe. Lately, I'm wondering if a lot of big name blades with papers may have an hidden ? One may own a blade with a ?, but alas, ignorance is bliss Maybe I think too much lol

Hi Reggie I suppose the only time a fake Tadayoshi mei might bother me is if i had paid for a Tadayoshi mei Looks a decent blade with everything visible, a nice buy.

An example, this is what I would assume would happen on some occasions (amusing scenario maybe) A customer turns up. Theres a dozen katana unsigned in the back, half by master, half by student. Boss don't like the look of the customer (doesn't have much cash, possibly a poor Ronin), so he picks up a student blade, hands it to the student and says "run me my signature over that whilst i have a brew".

Hi Diego, i understand the error bit, they are just educated opinions afterall. What im getting at is stuff we may not know about, who else may have worked in busy forges and who may have done this and that. I'm talking 300+ years ago. Speculating I know, but curious

Hi Joe, I'm talking about Shinsa Odds are that there are blades out there with a few unknown truths, cant be 100% sure of anything when we are dealing with the past, history we don't know nothing about.

School........... straightforward. Particular smith.............straightforward? Work and mei look good, but is there a chance that the work or mei are by someone else in the same school. A student blade?............... indistinguishable from the work of the main man. A student signing the mei on behalf of the main man. So what we would have then is a copy of the masters work. Are you 100% sure your blade is by that of who is stated? Another thread got me a wondering, just looking for opinions folks.

Hello Reggie, I'm no expert or code cracker either, but I think your instincts are correct with regards to the mei. It looks close as you say, but a few little details stand out. In Zen, the position of the middle vertical with the two small strokes above, seems way off. The downward curved stroke in Kuni doesn't look correct for this particular mei. BUT, Who knows, this may well turn into another four page spread where we get to see a wide variety of opinions

Im thinking "code" was the wrong word to use.

Hi Karl. What happens to the code when someone just signs....... An example. Tadakuni signing............................. Harima Daijo Fujiwara Tadakuni. Is there a need for a code? Is that where it ends?..............is there a code in there?..............for some reason? ?

Hi Thomas, not to up to date with things at the NTHK, good to learn about the detailed work sheet. I'm only going off stuff from the past, everything as been in Japanese (understandably). I suppose I just like to see everything in black and white, so to speak, don't like to miss anything. Appreciate your offer, cheers. Paul, I suppose that will have been a bit daunting at the DTI, suppose I'm just to used to seeing online translations. As you say, would expect to see translations, especially with some of those prices.

That's good news Peter, cheers.

Hi Joe, I have had a go at it in the past and muddled my way through most of it, but would be nice not to lol

I suppose when you come to sell a sword, having a translation will help, especially if the buyer is new to all this.

Hello Jean, well maybe the dog will become lazy and sit on the porch Seriously though, maybe they should offer a translation, even for a fee. Id be tempted.

In this day and age, is it too much to ask? Lets face it, sending a sword off to shinsa doesnt exactly cost pennies. Opinions anyone?

Hello Karl, thanks for uploading some of your findings, look forward to having good study later: Your Andy Warhol analogy was interesting, got me thinking, some might say speculating (or is it speculating?) Lets say I have a Tadayoshi, paid £10,000, with all the bells and whistles, and Hozen. Using the Andy Warhol analogy, one might ask two question. 1)Who made the sword?. Can anyone say for sure who made the sword?, Back to the pupil thing again, some Work by an apprentice will be indistinguishable. I can imagine Tadayoshi popping into the smithy now and again with a brew looking things over. Unless that is, you discover the Teacher/student code??, maybe that will clear up this problem. 2) Who signed the sword?. Lets face it, if we were not there to witness it, how do we know they signed it?. Must have become pretty tedious signing mei, whos to say that Tadayoshi didn't pay a guy to sign his mei?, How long would it take skilled chiseller to learn, a few afternoons on a few rejects maybe, code included. Hmm, but would there be a "passing the buck" code? So, chances are that someone has paid a lot of money for something with a few hidden truths, its fun buying stuff that's 300+ years old. Who gains from all this, I wonder?. Who knows, if you get to the bottom of all this with braking the codes, you too could make some money from appraisal.

Hard to say from the pics (and nightshift eyes) but looks like the hamon may run down the nakago, which may suggest suriage, which may suggest why the nakago does not look so old. I suppose the two mekugi ana may back up that idea......notice the use of "may".

" or least use the chisel-code... number of strokes... direction of your chisel etc that identifies you. If any inferior goods are returned to the Smithy... heads-will-roll... as your boss knows who made it. A bit like an identifying-modern-product-date-stamp. I'm so confident in the CODE.. please POST the character HIZEN... frorn ANY 'Tadayoshi School' blade ...and I will tell you who signed it. The hand that held the chisel." Hi Karl, if your code works?, and as in your last statement, it will tell you who signed it. So, not to confuse, but how do we know (for sure) from all this who made it? To clarify, an example. A Tadayoshi (none in particular) asks his student to make five swords, the student makes five swords. So impressed is Tadayoshi that he signs all five swords (using his particular code). A sword is returned by a customer with a problem six months later. Who takes the blame??, poor old Tadayoshi, that's who!. If he had been clever he would covered himself using an apprentice approval code maybe? lol When you say inferior goods returned, can you clarify?, would have thought there would be a pre- delivery inspection. I suppose an example could be a sword brakes in a duel and the customer demands a refund or a replacement maybe?. I suppose you would need a receipt, bill of sale. Where one would draw the line with this I don't know, anti-corrosion warranty maybe Ps, I'm not sure there will be any takers on your offer at the moment, you haven't offered any evidence, images or in-depth explanation to your theory. On a good note though, does get me a wondering/speculating.

This is worth a read Ken. http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12646-advices-for-newbies-buyers-rules-of-thumb/