Rivkin

There was a "serious academic" article recently arguing during Edo period jutte and to lesser extent shoto were used as paperweights and sized accordingly. Driving this logic forward, Sadamune tanto would weight done very important papers.

? I don't think it was bad.... maybe 150 milliguidos at times. Nihonto always had unusual reputation among other sword collectors. Very cliquey, lots of people with condescending-patronizing attitudes ever-ready to explain how others need to live and collect. Getting harder year by year to find someone not pushing a statement he is Tanobe san's student, friend or successor. Used to be people resisted placing Japan-specializing folks in charge of some general Asian studies department, fearing they can end up with a cultist having zero general perception and massive commitment to "Japanese means perfect" metric. The problem, today its about the same or worse in any field. Would it be a "Middle Eastern" topic, in the end Russian dealers and "scholars" would have written long letters to Russian security services-assassination division complaining the glory of Imperial scholarship is under assault, while American and EU "scholars" would have kept arguing whether per Edward Said a white person can have an opinion on the subject. I long wondered why it became so versus, my grandfather's generation, and realized it is first and foremost the collector who's changed. Just looking at my father's generation collectors: One collected Chagall. Which meant he knew Chagall, was responsible for a portion of Chagall's archive, had a significant weight in the artistic community. Was a director of a research lab. Another collected old masters. Successful documentary film maker with a substantial standing in the art world. Taught subjects like aesthetic of film. Was a subject of epigrams penned by couple of first tier poets. By the way, neither was an aristocrat, quite new people of the XXth century by every metric. But by comparison today's collector is .... democratic. He takes a condescending tone or better yet - a title, as a sign of "scholarship", as a stimulus to name drop about how much he learned from this person. Constantly trying to guess which people he has to publicly praise at any fortunate occasion, and whom he has to no less publicly despise. The rot is everywhere: Stone's book is still very important in arms and armor 100 years later, Dean's works are seldom cited but still interesting. Take by comparison the star of modern arms and armor world, Pierre Terjanian, director at MFA. Two monographs listed as publications, you can read both online.... Usual defense is "he had to write for a general public!". As if these people also produced "serious literature" or 100 years ago Stone toiled for post-Ph.D. readers only. Not a single person in a museum or academic world today carries any significant perception of anything between North Africa and China, and everything is managed "among friends". Brew the coffee and Worship me, and you might even be chosen as a successor. Would one not expect "scholars" and senseis to be spreading like locusts? Rotten times. Rotten because people refuse to build and protect what matters.

Its more like if there is a type the smith is particularly known for, than this type will have a chance at Juyo, and others might not. For example, koto Tsunahiro benefits greatly from having a horimono. Going back to the topic once I've shown my zaimei nidai Tsunahiro to a good collector, who responded "why did you buy it? Tsunahiro without horimono will never be Juyo".

Top tier blade. Already Juyo with 95 probability. The rest are overcompressed images, without oshigata I can't see anything. For some reason the others also over-reflect the later Aoe features, which by itself is fine, but Aoe is very diverse and capable of very interesting things in Kamakura. Most "chirimen" blades I held were by comparison rougher and plainer.

I think any koto you buy under X dollars will have something wrong with it. If X is 10k USD the choice is to accept what its missing: half of the original blade, half of the original condition, was problematic to begin with, etc.. Any blade teaches you something. If I would have all the money ever spent back, I would buy just a few good swords and avoid many mistakes. But I would not learn as much as I had.

.... how long this discussion can go on. Its simple: you go by doing your sutff and suddenly you feel, hey boy, you want some action... you look... and its chikei... Smooth, silky, flowing chikei... and there is mokume... crusty and black... and there is inazuma.... and its hard... and thin.... and bright.... and there is like kinsuji... lots of it, dude.... And then like wow, your cash is gone.

I think you are raising an important point, both from collecting and anthropologic points of view, but which could be discussed for everyone's benefit only as long as it is accepted the question does not have a single answer. What I cited comes from an important Nihonto collector (i.e. unlike either one of us), whose name is well recognized and who without a doubt made substantial contribution. He was direct about people with less than X millions in war funds having to accept their limitations and neither participating in certain functions, nor bothering others who do. On the other (and opposite) hand, museum community in the West today generally takes it as a serious personal detriment if one collects at a high level. If such person starts working at a first tier museum there are formal protocols being developed which are rather unpleasant. This was one (though I suspect minor) reason behind me being blacklisted by the community. The declared vision is to separate "scholar" and "acquisitioner" roles. I doubt its a plus, suspecting instead simple jealousy is involved. The best specialists on Duhrer and other similar subjects tend to collect, but at a modest level.

"You can either believe yourself to be above all Japanese expertise. Or accept that a good sword comes with Tokubetsu Juyo certificate and stop wasting yours and other's time."

Weapon collecting is intrinsically surrounded by romanticism of battle, nobility, shiny armor & stuff. There are "fakes" and "conjectures", yet I don't reject out of hand the notion "this sword was (could have been) at one of the major battles". Two sieges of Osaka and to lesser extent Sekigahara involved very many people, out of whom yes, very few actually killed, but its true for every war. Today in Ukraine firearm casualties are 2-4% of the total, half are friendly fire. There are people picking up still in service [!] collectables like PPSH, seeking an aura of something which served in combat during two wars almost 100 years apart. Chances this particular weapon killed someone are near zero. Is it still a "combat relic" and was it "at war"? Absolutely. That is what weapons are made for, its just the way they are used and the war itself is very different compared to movies. Dismissive attitude towards "average swords" of 16th century is actually rather unique feature to certain type of nihonto collecting. If you collect Chinese, most "16th century swords" are dealer's conjectures, and usually rather crazy ones, because the real ones are treasures. My great-great-grandfather was an "Orientalist" who went as far as converting to Islam. This gave birth to rather bizarre speculations about his genealogy. "Romantic" BS kind of speculations - yes, but in 1900-1930 this was a "proper science", still treated as a "scientific reference" until 20 years ago, influenced my life profoundly. and still does: we all live in myths and legends, but not always willing to acknowledge that. Apart of that, one of his contributions was discovering a certain tribal blade from the 18th century. He or someone else had it very poorly ("romantically") restored, and it was not a great quality item to being with, but to this day it remains an important reference - because there are not many (any) others of this type and period. Japanese collector's attitude "its just Sukesada" has some basis, but it misses the fact it was a valuable military item back in the days, and in many other cultures something like this would have been a true treasure - because unlike Japan in most cultures people did not collect at all until late XXth century, and these cultures have virtually nothing preserved. Often such "barren history" is blamed on external factors, but most people simply did not see and do not see value in old things. The idea to surround yourself with rusty old blades appears mildly crazy - but without such idea, there is no basic foundation for collecting. Without the basic foundation - there never will be an opportunity to select among "rusty old blades" a few which are "superior" and restore them. Collecting is: impractical, somewhat illogical and has a strong potential to scare off sexy women. Its also a sign of civilization.

I think every collecting field goes through stages. First there is a lot of stuff, no one knows anything, and everything feels like a discovery. The knowledge improves, but now everything is expensive and commercial, yet if you are after a top notch understanding it is easier to get there. Maybe its time for a definitive Kunikane article?

You need to spend considerable effort doing photographs of the entire blade, details, tsuka specifically. Compositions here it lies somewhere, and here is me with smartphone do not work. What is seen is Muromachi blade with nearly gone signature and rough polish, possibly done by a Japanese dealer. Tsuka wrapping is probably new.

Thanks! I always moved by your knowledge of non-obvious Japanese procedures whose real nature I am as I think many remain unaware of... even after using them!

I don't think such swords can be uniquely attributed. 1365? itame dominated with no clear masame(?). Can it be called Tametsugu? I have no doubt some did it recently. Can it be called Hasebe? Here is not a typical Hasebe, but still attributed as such. Yes, it can be Hasebe. Could it have been traditionally called Masamune? Quite likely. Shizu? Can be. Atypical jigane, but. There is no definitive kantei trait on the photo which points to one specific attribution. Maybe in real life there is. It is not uncommon for Soshu not to have one though. Sa school... I personally like the idea, but again nothing says it has to be one.

To me this is not so much about whether limiting oneself to the uppermost bound is (always) a good thing. The issue is whether there is a single way to collect and whether money is the best metric to go by. That depends. In a dojo sensei can try to dictate diet, habits or limit tv time of students. In Islamic or Jewish world in some communities you'll get a night bang on the door delivering a message from Sheikh he caught a glimpse of you walking pass the doorstep wrong foot first. So, yes, there is a "proper way". But Japanese sensei is well aware of myriads books/tv shows condemning the "deshi" relationship in its extreme form. He has cultural anti-bodies, which non-Japanese sensei usually does not. One of big reasons I seldom attend DTI or many other assemblies, certainly wary of talking to random people, is the many existing groups with their senseis, strict rules regarding collecting, and how one has to study. I don't care about another dealer or "John who's been doing it for fifty years" running around me in circles. In three sentences you learn whether a person is ready to talk about swords, or he is out there to bring me to the "true path". I remember how 20 years ago I was repeatedly and passionately warned and prohibited against doing photography since it corrupts one's ability to work with oshigata and not a proper way. Or fed by "senseis" the genealogies of early smiths which can't be not taken seriously by anyone who progressed even a little bit past "jutetsu", default Heian attributions and other dealer stuff. The "true path" has some merits, but its not my path. WE don't talk much about what costs what, we don't use money or number of Juyos (multiplied by kokuho in the power of five thirds) as The metric. I respect smiths with zero Juyos, those born in the wrong time or leaving behind so few blades they simply don't come up often. I respect 1000$ swords for what they are and 15,000$ Kiyomaro mumei for what it is. I seldom dictate what people are to do. I am not an almanach-registered Uradel. I do not have a Nobel prize. In my hierarchy me issuing dictats would not be proper. I simply enjoy blades, photography and solving puzzles.

Probably from 1360s (hmmm)... but there are some (TJ 16th session for example). Usually with a long history of such attribution. I don't see a lot of masame and the hamon's base tends towards ko-nie so if not Masamune I would go Sa school, distart third is Naotsuna.

Its Soshu Masamune or a very good shinshinto imitation.

Its hard for me to be sure. Sugata is late Muromachi, and typically Kanemoto we expect either Naoe or Seki work, though suguha was popular in many Mino lineages in the 15th century. This however looks like textbook Zenjo. Tight bright but maybe somewhat uneven nioiguchi, featureless hamon, tight itame jigane, and they do large mokume which encapsulates area where the hada is subdued. There is a bit more nagare than on a typical Zenjo, but the school's influence is apparent, even if it might be not Zenjo lineage.

Interesting how the world changed. Not long ago a "dreamy recollection" involved serving with Hemingway, arguing with Picasso or having a tea with Annunzio. Today its meeting dealers at a trade event.

Mumei! I feel a lot of Hasebe, Kunitoshi, Nobukuni get this additional "zaimei" bonus points at Juyo, while mumei has to work extra hard getting there. A lot of Hasebe Juyo zaimei I would not care in the least about.

And if someone says - ok, without saving at 5-10k you actually can buy a first tier shinshinto blade, but mumei, I guess you'll take a significant issue with that. What price range to strive for, when, how, is directly linked to how we perceive the financial value versus art versus collectible. Which is however different in different cultures. As I hinted in another thread, minus the diplomatic nicities, the first few times I dealt with Russian, Chinese a few other collector communities I felt "what an awful low class behavior, price point reference as the basis of all decisions and flaunting it in the open", o-la-la. Then I learned how it works in a number of situations, Surprisingly Well as long as participants agree to use this metric, and it can be vastly more efficient compared to my approach, certainly more "objective" and metric based. But I would not adapt this culture, as it is not mine, I am not very well skilled in it, and what I grew up in or adopted on my own works ok for me and my purposes. For me, second generation Sukesada is more talented and interesting smith than Kagemitsu. Buying it instead of saving up for signed Kagemitsu daito - super. Mumei Kiyomaro at 15k usd or mumei Naotane at 6 can be vastly more interesting, educational and enjoyable blades than 80% of Juyo at 30-60. Its a Rembrandt at 15k... with significant collectible-vise detriments.

"What is a great blade" and "does it match the valuation" is yet another big question, and I would be in the camp "often it does not". I've seen a few Awataguchi Kuniyasu which were as rough as many Muromachi blades. Kanemitsu in MFA is one of the most boring blades I've ever seen. Many zaimei Rai Kunitoshi which have neither the famously consistent tight jigane, nor is nioiguchi particularly stable, nor are frankly very impressive overall. There are quite a few shinto smiths who produced very impressive work, but shinto valuation is very black and white, like 10 people being the top and bottom is the "rest". There were people in 1710s who never had a chance to make a lot of blades because of the economics, I look at their blades and its absolutely top tier - but there are literally a handful of blades to their name and a single line in meikan. Zaimei inferior work by Naotane, which we can justify on the basis that he needed a lot of experimentation, and a lot of it was... experimentation quality, will not come even close. But shinto blade will be 4k and Naotane 30k. There is a dozen of Muromachi smiths whom I would value significantly but their names and blade valuations remain semi-obscured. I had to check the records now myself, but Bungo Munekage produced some impressive stuff. Heianjo smiths, of whom Yoshihiro's hitatsura probably the only thing which will have decent level valuation. By comparison there are tons of Juyo which are Juyo because other similar blades have been Juyo before. Aoe is a great school, but late Kamakura Aoe Juyo with rough chirimen, not particularly accented hamon can look rather humble next to TH Oei Bizen. Subjectively to me 90% of TJ are great blades, and it goes down to probably 30% at Juyo, but if it comes down to artistry there are very poor valued schools which are impressive. Usually people just don't discern quality when they say this, so it is not a respected statement, but there are quite a few smiths who made relatively few blades, are very obscure, but are high level.

I don't think within first 1.5-2 years collectors should buy High end blades. Cheaper blades allow you to experiment, experience loss, study without having a lot at stake, not only in financial but also artefact preservation terms. I for example have very poor motorics, inferior manners and need to maintain attention just to avoid damage. Even then I had two(!) memorable near misses when photographing important unique blades... At some point I made a decision not to collect blades with very high level papers. First, there were just two periods in my life when I could afford them. Second, my understanding of commercial side of nihonto is insufficient. In order not to waste considerable sum when reselling I need to be confident in 10-30% valuation increase, which with many names is not trivial nor expected. Third, I enjoy dumpster diving and working with blades without attributions. Forth, I realized for a considerable time I was an encyclopedic collector going through as many schools as possible to understand what they are and to know how to photograph them. My high end purchase ended up a financial and otherwise disaster. I probably bought it for the name and paper level, as it was not a stellar piece looks-wise. It gave me a few fun moments, like coming to a club always presented a perfect opportunity to give it to a sensei and enjoy him stating "oh, you bought a REAL samurai blade! Good start! Muromachi, yes, samurai-fighting-yes. Very small kissaki, probably reshaped, which for Japanese sword is not a good thing, yes.". Nakago comes out... Poor Sensei-san. Thing is, appraising blades is difficult and when a new person walks in nobody expects him to carry something of value. Conversely when a respected collector in a club brings a blade you don't expect it to be a Mihara. Even the best Mihara in existence, he'll not bring something that makes people remember "and John brought Mihara". Suguha? Rai Kunitoshi! atari.

In objective commercial terms the absolutely worst purchase I ever made had a very high ranking paper. For obvious reasons.

I have seen plenty of collections with dozens of 500-1000$ swords and nothing else. Reminds me of Ukrainian army - one General, six mistresses, and every single one bears two inch red lips with certain other physical features. But there is a fun story, sort of the other side. I am standing in line at DTI and there is an American collector right after me. We are talking about what are we are looking for and I say - maybe I'll find a nice koshirae. How much do you have on you, says the guy. 10,000$. The guy starts to shake and taps me on the shoulder "you should not be doing this... you should not be doing this... Nice koshirae is 100k USD. You should buy books, study, and then with 100k you can buy a nice piece". Everytime he saw me walking between stands later same day he kept shaking his head in disapproval. I am pretty confident when this dude dies, for a year somewhere in Kansas couple of friends at the local club will sigh "John was such a massive figure in our field". And then comes.. nothing. There is not going to be a groundbreaking collection for sale. Nobody will state "Before John we believed in two Rai Kunitoshi but he proved there was three".

I would pass. It would be 1550s generation, but I personally don't like the nakago.